The law or company policy?

[pompeyfan]

I'm trying to put some theories to rest, so if anyone has similar and would like to add feel free!

Other drivers are always telling each other it's against the law to do this or that, but I'd like to know if it's against the law, or just company policy that sounds more enforceable if it's described as law!

My examples are passengers drinking alcohol on a normal service bus, and the other one is carrying standing passengers on motorways and on high speed duel carriageways (A27/A38 etc).

Could someone please clear up if they are laws or just company policy that've gone a bit Chinese whispers!

 

[yorkie]

...and the other one is carrying standing passengers on motorways...

You may find the discussion in Night Services Blackpool - Manchester useful. It looks like it depends on the bus?

It's illegal to have standees on a coach on the motorway, but you can on a service bus, if it's fitted with grab rails. Would be interested to have this backed-up by current PCV licence holder if any are reading??? I still hold a class 1 HGV licence but not a PCV.

Passengers can stand on a coach on the motorway if the vehicle is operating a local stopping service and is registered as such with VOSA, where part of the route is motorway. An express i.e. end to end service cannot carry standees so in this case - no.

 

[pompeyfan]

So even that is a bit ambiguous, I was expecting/hoping someone could point towards a Highway Code law and jobs a Gooden, but apparently not, thanks for pulling that out yorkie!

 

[bluenoxid]

I have not seen anyone point towards any legislation with regards to standing passengers on Motorways.

My advice would be the FOI VOSA.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

surely the standing passengers issue would be addressed by the rated seating and standing capacities of the vehicle ... which comes down the CoIF .

 

[richw]

Here is the law on drinking alcohol. (I haven't read it all, a simple copy and paste, so unsure if all applicable to your question) There is no such law in general circumstances.

Public Service Vehicles and Trains

Section 1 Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985
Applies to public service vehicles or railway passenger vehicles being used within England and Wales for the principle purpose of carrying passengers to or from a designated sporting event (for the whole or only part of the journey - even where event is outside England or Wales)

Section 1(2) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985 - level 4 fine - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for :-

the operator or his servant or agent (if the vehicle is a public service vehicle), or

the hirer or his servant or agent (if the vehicle is hired -must still be a PSV or railway vehicle)

to knowingly cause or permit [alcohol] to be carried -

Section 1(3) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985 - level 3 fine and/or 3 months - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for a person to have [alcohol] in his possession

Section 1(4) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985 - level 2 fine - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for a person be drunk

Does not apply to PSVs and railway carriages on regular services as the principle purpose is not to carry passengers to a designated sporting event.

Minibuses (non-PSV)

Section 1A Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985
Applies to motor vehicles adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (but which are not public service vehicles) being used for the principle purpose of carrying 2 or more passengers to or from a designated sporting event (for the whole or only part of the journey)

Section 1A(2) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985- level 4 fine - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for :-

the driver, or

the keeper (or his servant or agent), or

the person to whom it is made available by the keeper (or their servants or agents)

to knowingly cause or permit [alcohol] to be carried

Section 1A(3) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985 - level 3 fine and/or 3 months - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for a person to have [alcohol] in his possession

Section 1A(4) Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985- level 2 fine - summary offence
It is an offence, on a vehicle to which this section applies, for a person be drunk - Section 1A(4)

Police Powers

Section 7 Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985
A constable may :-

stop a public service vehicle or a motor vehicle to which these sections of the act apply, as above, and

may search such a vehicle or a railway passenger vehicle if he has reasonable grounds for suspecting an offence under these sections has or is being committed in respect of the vehicle,

search any person he has reasonable grounds for suspecting is committing or has committed an offence under this Act

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.....my examples are passengers drinking alcohol on a normal service.

This is my own personal belief, not based on any fact that a law relates to regarding this matter, but I believe that it is common practice in the UK for companies and their staff to reserve the right not to carry passengers who are clearly demonstrate to be under the influence of alcohol, particularly if they show that they are either aggressive or disorderly...or heaven forbid, a combination of both these attributes.

 

[transmanche]

My examples are passengers drinking alcohol on a normal service bus,

This is what TfL said when their alcohol ban was introduced.

TfL intends to implement the policy through a change to the Conditions of Carriage [...] Any person suspected of committing a public disorder offence in refusing to comply with this ban may therefore be arrested.

(It's also a specific Road Premises byelaw offence to drink alcohol in a TfL bus station or bus shelter.)

I guess the same will be true elsewhere; if the operator's CoCs prohibit drinking alcohol, you could be arrested for a public order offence for refusing to comply.

So perhaps you can say it's 'indirectly illegal'...

 

[Mugby]

There are perhaps several examples but as you say, most are simply not enforceable.

If someone takes alcohol which is concealed in a bag, onto a bus or coach and then begins to drink it when the journey is underway, it would be dependent on another passenger reporting the issue to the driver, which is most unlikely.

In a similar vein, a driver of my local Arriva company refused to allow someone to board who was carrying a large tin of paint, the sort with a carrying strap across the top. But was it company policy or not, what if the tin had been well wrapped or covered up in some way?

I wasn't allowed on one well known airport link bus carrying a cup of coffee with a lid on, 'No hot drinks allowed' but a few days later someone else did the same and the diver was unconcerned.

 

[transmanche]

In a similar vein, a driver of my local Arriva company refused to allow someone to board who was carrying a large tin of paint, the sort with a carrying strap across the top. But was it company policy or not, what if the tin had been well wrapped or covered up in some way?

Apparently allowed if in a bag, not allowed if not in a bag.

You remain responsible at all times for the safe carriage, stability and handling of any items you bring on board, including liquids or paint which must be in sealed containers and within appropriate bags.

Source: http://www.arrivabus.co.uk/conditions-of-carriage/

 

[34D]

No laws against the drinking of coffee or alcohol on a bus by passengers (or indeed by the driver).

 

[quarella]

No laws against the drinking of coffee or alcohol on a bus by passengers (or indeed by the driver).

However consuming a beverage whilst in motion could come under "Failure to have proper control of the vehicle" https://www.gov.uk/highway-code-penalties/penalty-table

Whilst not necessarily exceeding the drink drive limit I think most operators have a no alcohol whilst on duty policy.

As far as I am a can see from Dft documents available on line as long as the indicated capacity of seated/standing passengers is not exceeded standing passengers are permitted on the motorway. A written answer from Hansard in 1997

Buses (Standing Passengers)

Mr. Pike: To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions if he will prohibit buses travelling on motorways from carrying standing passengers; and if he will make a statement. [6349]

Ms Glenda Jackson: Clearly, the risk of injury to passengers in an accident is minimised if they are seated and wearing seatbelts. In the light of this we will be looking at whether the current rules for standing passengers in buses on motorways need further consideration.

4 Jul 1997 : Column: 306

I think they are still considering it. The stumbling block is probably urban motorways such as the A57(M) in Manchester and A38(M) in Birmingham used over a very short distance by some buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think they are still considering it. The stumbling block is probably urban motorways such as the A57(M) in Manchester and A38(M) in Birmingham used over a very short distance by some buses.

May I add to your examples above, the M66 from the Rawtenstall area to the M62 at Heaton Park (quite a distance) that is used by the Lancashire Witch X43 service as part of its normal service route.

 

[LexyBoy]

What about picking up / dropping off passengers other than at bus stops? Plenty of companies make a big fuss of not being allowed to (I'm sure some of them have said "it's the law"), but wondered - if this is the case - how the Borismaster is supposed to work?

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have it in writing from VOSA (admittedly some years ago - but I don't believe anything has changed) that the number of standees permitted on a bus is solely determined by the vehicle (and there will be a notice inside indicating the maxima) and is not affected at all by the type of road being used nor the vehicle's speed nor anything else.

 

[transmanche]

What about picking up / dropping off passengers other than at bus stops? Plenty of companies make a big fuss of not being allowed to (I'm sure some of them have said "it's the law"), but wondered - if this is the case - how the Borismaster is supposed to work?

I think that's something covered by the conditions of carriage/company rules. Certainly TfL buses (used to) carry a notice saying that drivers had been instructed to only open the doors at bus stops.

Ironically for the Borismaster (and the heritage Routemaster services), the TfL CoCs dated 19 May 2013 state;

on our bus services, you must board or alight from the vehicle only at official bus stops except in places where we advertise the bus service as being operated as ‘hail and ride’ when the driver will stop where it is safe to do so.

 

[richw]

What about picking up / dropping off passengers other than at bus stops? Plenty of companies make a big fuss of not being allowed to (I'm sure some of them have said "it's the law"), but wondered - if this is the case - how the Borismaster is supposed to work?

Down here the majority of drivers are more than happy to drop people off in places nearer where they are going, as long as safe to do so. They are especially good with the elderly and disabled people.

 

[tony_mac]

What about picking up / dropping off passengers other than at bus stops?

There are certainly places where buses routinely stop on demand rather than at designated stops.

e.g.,

Along Charnwood Road, Dinas Lane, Page Moss Lane, Childwall Lane,
Milton Avenue, Thingwall Lane and Thingwall Hall Drive, where there
are no bus stops, you can 'Hail and Ride' Route 139.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Hail and Ride" is an officially used term where certain designated areas are clearly defined to be by the operating company. I have seen timetables with maps where the "Hail and Ride" areas in a service route are very clearly defined.

This is not just an ad-hoc situation.

 

[34D]

Down here the majority of drivers are more than happy to drop people off in places nearer where they are going, as long as safe to do so. They are especially good with the elderly and disabled people.

This is absolutely common sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Hail and Ride" is an officially used term where certain designated areas are clearly defined to be by the operating company. I have seen timetables with maps where the "Hail and Ride" areas in a service route are very clearly defined.

This is not just an ad-hoc situation.

In general, bus stops can be marked, unmarked, or hail & ride.

 

[causton]

And some companies say that if there are no stops within e.g. a mile they will stop wherever safe en route

 

[lightning76]

A public service vehicle may stop to pick up or set down passengers at any safe place, unless stopping (as opposed to waiting or parking) is prohibited, such as a red route, motorway or where indicated by the relevant traffic signs. Stopping places may also be restricted by the police or traffic commissioners. But most local buses can legally stop for passengers anywhere they wish, it is usually company policy to only stop at marked bus stops.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A public service vehicle may stop to pick up or set down passengers at any safe place, unless stopping (as opposed to waiting or parking) is prohibited, such as a red route, motorway or where indicated by the relevant traffic signs. Stopping places may also be restricted by the police or traffic commissioners. But most local buses can legally stop for passengers anywhere they wish, it is usually company policy to only stop at marked bus stops.

Welcome to the forum and for your posting of explanation.

 

[bb21]

A public service vehicle may stop to pick up or set down passengers at any safe place, unless stopping (as opposed to waiting or parking) is prohibited, such as a red route, motorway or where indicated by the relevant traffic signs. Stopping places may also be restricted by the police or traffic commissioners. But most local buses can legally stop for passengers anywhere they wish, it is usually company policy to only stop at marked bus stops.

... and for insurance purposes?

 

[Stan Drews]

I have it in writing from VOSA (admittedly some years ago - but I don't believe anything has changed) that the number of standees permitted on a bus is solely determined by the vehicle (and there will be a notice inside indicating the maxima) and is not affected at all by the type of road being used nor the vehicle's speed nor anything else.

That remains the current situation.

The "no standing rule" on a motorway service, is simply an urban myth, as the number of passengers able to stand on a bus or coach, is as per the legal notice which must be displayed on all vehicles.
So its possible that you can stand on a bus/coach on a motorway, whilst similarly possible that you are unable to stand on a bus/coach on a quiet side street in sleepy hollow!

 

[90019]

... and for insurance purposes?

IIRC, our rule is mainly because of insurance.

If a passenger is getting off my bus at a stop or somewhere along a hail and ride section and they have an accident then the liability is generally with them, but if I let them off away from a stop and something happens, the liability is then mine.

 

[pompeyfan]

Cheers for the answers, I was under the opinion that it was generally company policy and CoC for many of the rules, and not legally founded. Know I can sit smug and know for sure!

 

[lightning76]

... and for insurance purposes?

I would be surprised if an operators insurance policy did not cover anything they are legally allowed to do under their operators licence. In any case insurers are primarily concerned with their customers taking all reasonable steps to minimise the risk of an accident, and therefore a claim. This is not necessarily concurrent with stopping immediately adjacent to a sign saying "Bus Stop". As long as the stopping place is a safe one I cannot imagine there being a problem.