North East Wales transport task force results

[Gareth Marston]

Sorry to sound a bit thick BUT has anything been spent on the project as yet? It sounds like it has. Correct?

from what I've heard the GRIP process can run into £millions before a shovel is ready - though you'll have to get someone else to explain how!
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My impression and the views of a good many more, is the ring fenced money for the redouble is ear marked for other areas, or it has already been spent.
A bit of honesty from WG would not go amiss.

Hopefully the Ebbw Vale town extension will have been worked up back in the mid 2000's and the same plans used now. It was cheese paired out to save costs and i understand the planning work was done.

If you look at the National Transport Plan in 2010, its 2011 revision and the recent announcements you'll note that there are now far fewer schemes and a number of them never appeared in 10 & 11. Priorities have undoubtedly changed.

 

[TDK]

I wonder whether replacing the current 60mph plate jointed track with 80 / 90 mph welded track would be another option for Wrexham - Saltney? (i.e. decrease the journey time)....and maybe a short section of double track at Saltney off the North Wales Mainline for any "queuing"?

Something's definitely up, and I do wonder whether "savings have to be made"?.....

That will only save about a minute and a half and unlikely make any impact on train times due to the speeding up and slowing down.
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Actually, the headway on the current single line (60mph) is about 12 minutes.
If this was reduced to 9-10 minutes (90mph) there would be a measurable increase in capacity.
You should be able to get 2tph return legs out of that if carefully timed.

.

We are talking mainly 158 traction here and by the time the train gets to 90mph it will have to brake for the 75mph proposed at Gresford and then will never maintain the 75mph up Gresford bank. You are only really looking at 1m 30s - 2m saving and this is not enough to run more trains. Freight will be restricted on speed and also the 150's that frequent the line will not help either. If you want more trains the only option is redoubling, as for the cost and funds I have always personally thought that it is a complete waste of money and the money would be better spent elsewhere, seems that that may be the views of the WG as well.

 

[merlodlliw]

That will only save about a minute and a half and unlikely make any impact on train times due to the speeding up and slowing down.
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We are talking mainly 158 traction here and by the time the train gets to 90mph it will have to brake for the 75mph proposed at Gresford and then will never maintain the 75mph up Gresford bank. You are only really looking at 1m 30s - 2m saving and this is not enough to run more trains. Freight will be restricted on speed and also the 150's that frequent the line will not help either. If you want more trains the only option is redoubling, as for the cost and funds I have always personally thought that it is a complete waste of money and the money would be better spent elsewhere, seems that that may be the views of the WG as well.

I agree you have always thought it waste, but taxpayers money as also been used by WG on other less worthy projects, Wagair and of course buying Cardiff Airport for £50M which will see absolute no benefit to anyone living North of Newport, One has to ask whats going on, WG blame Network Rail as stated at the meeting I attended last week in Wrexham, then an e mail is sent out by Network Rail to RUGs telling us everything is is in place to commence in October. All my local politicians are on the case and this wont be let go.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's on the TAITH site. There are two report documents there, a summary one and a technical one.

It probably is more useful to read the report than to read what a couple of Tories think of it.

I don't think it comes up. They're more interested in getting 2tph on all routes.

The report only managed to load partially for me. Did they say how they think the 2tph should be formed on the north Wales coast and Wrexham - Chester lines? Are they supportive of the current Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham(via Shrewsbury) service or would they rather trains from Holyhead ran to Crewe/Manchester and services from Wrexham to Chester terminate or extend to Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester?

taxpayers money as also been used by WG on other less worthy projects, Wagair and of course buying Cardiff Airport for £50M which will see absolute no benefit to anyone living North of Newport

I agree, WAGair and Cardiff airport should have been left to die. Any 'green' claims WAG may make are now even more unbelievable, why try to save the most poluting form of transport I can think of (aviation)? They have also ripped up TrawsCambria, the one thing that looked like it might make bus travel an attractive mode. The latest is the buses bought for the TrawsCambria replacement between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen have been diverted to Cardiff airport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The report only managed to load partially for me. Did they say how they think the 2tph should be formed on the north Wales coast and Wrexham - Chester lines? Are they supportive of the current Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham(via Shrewsbury) service or would they rather trains from Holyhead ran to Crewe/Manchester and services from Wrexham to Chester terminate or extend to Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester?

It doesn't go into that sort of detail.
It's about access to jobs/shops/leisure and basically says the historic links are in the wrong place for today's population/needs/opportunities.

It's also limited to the TAITH area and adjacent areas, so more about cross-border links with Chester/Wirral than North Wales as a whole.
They do support the Halton Curve reopening, but some of the new station proposals look a little odd from a railway point of view (Wrexham North, Hawarden Bridge, Saltney/Airbus).

This link works for me.
http://www.taith.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/130628-NEWITT-Report-FINAL-High-Res.pdf

 

[merlodlliw]

It doesn't go into that sort of detail.
It's about access to jobs/shops/leisure and basically says the historic links are in the wrong place for today's population/needs/opportunities.

It's also limited to the TAITH area and adjacent areas, so more about cross-border links with Chester/Wirral than North Wales as a whole.
They do support the Halton Curve reopening, but some of the new station proposals look a little odd from a railway point of view (Wrexham North, Hawarden Bridge, Saltney/Airbus).

This link works for me.
http://www.taith.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/130628-NEWITT-Report-FINAL-High-Res.pdf

Wrexham North is at Rossett,a link to the vast Wrexham Industrial Estate without going into Wrexham Town, it would service the new super prison with 2000 inmates and 1000 employees, this park/ride/interchange was part of the all North Wales Councils bid to get the prison into Wrexham with extra trains between Chester & Wrexham,this interchange was a deciding factor in getting the Ministry Of Justice to Choose Wrexham,2000 inmates will create thousands of visitors to the prison many arriving by rail.
I hope WG dont cock it up now,

 

[Gareth Marston]

It doesn't go into that sort of detail.
It's about access to jobs/shops/leisure and basically says the historic links are in the wrong place for today's population/needs/opportunities.

It's also limited to the TAITH area and adjacent areas, so more about cross-border links with Chester/Wirral than North Wales as a whole.
They do support the Halton Curve reopening, but some of the new station proposals look a little odd from a railway point of view (Wrexham North, Hawarden Bridge, Saltney/Airbus).

This link works for me.
http://www.taith.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/130628-NEWITT-Report-FINAL-High-Res.pdf

There all where employment opportunities are in NE Wales it's a very thought through linked into the wider economy. The Airbus factory is that significant it generates a measurable percentage of Welsh GDP on its own.

 

[The Informer]

"As part of the same scheme a further £9.8m was to be spent on increasing the line speed between Gobowen and Shrewsbury to 90mph"

Hello???

If the Daily Post could be bothered to send a photographer out on midweek nights then a picture paints a thousand words!!!

Also the curves associated with this project have all been re-measured as part of the re-alignment scheme.

"A business case is currently being developed by the Department for Transport to upgrade the lines between Holyhead and Crewe, with improvements to the Wrexham-Bidston line also seen as a key component of the scheme"

Ermmm...

Has anyone actually seen the volume of track relaying undertaken over the last 18months on this line??
We basically have a brand new railway between Wrexham & Shotton and linespeed enhancments should happen anytime soon. The down line relaying is all complete so linespeeds MAY increase in the down direction towards Bidston first.

 

[merlodlliw]

from Todays local Daily Post, reporter Steve Bagnall

Delay to rail upgrade in North Wales could hit plans for electrification
29 Jul 2013 08:36

An indefinite delay to a £36 million line upgrade could jeopardise the electrification of the North Wales rail network.

The Welsh Government caused shock and consternation when transport minister Edwina Hart announced she would be “reviewing the processes and decision-making,” behind the upgrading of the key Wrexham to Chester line, which was set to go ahead.

Now there are major concerns that if the scheme – to redouble the size of the bottle-neck line – does not go ahead it could put at risk plans to upgrade the region’s rail network, including electrification and its connections with the rest of the UK, ultimately hampering the North Wales economy.

Opposition AMs claim the Welsh Government is funding rail projects in south Wales at the expense of the north.

Responsibility for the railway infrastructure in Wales is devolved to Westminster, but the Welsh Government contributes to schemes.

A business case is currently being developed by the Department for Transport to upgrade the lines between Holyhead and Crewe, with improvements to the Wrexham-Bidston line also seen as a key component of the scheme.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/delay-rail-upgrade-north-wales-5377798

The printed copy was more substantial with the quote by the reporter Steve Bagnall "No one from Welsh Gov has denied the funds have already been spent in the South"

Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wrexham North is at Rossett,a link to the vast Wrexham Industrial Estate without going into Wrexham Town, it would service the new super prison with 2000 inmates and 1000 employees, this park/ride/interchange was part of the all North Wales Councils bid to get the prison into Wrexham with extra trains between Chester & Wrexham,this interchange was a deciding factor in getting the Ministry Of Justice to Choose Wrexham,2000 inmates will create thousands of visitors to the prison many arriving by rail.
I hope WG dont cock it up now,

The nearest the report (the technical one) gets to a location is "Rossett/Gresford area".
This is what the Ministry of Justice says about visiting Risley prison: http://www.justice.gov.uk/contacts/prison-finder/risley/visiting-information

Train: Travel to either Warrington Central (Liverpool/Manchester Line) or Warrington Bank Quay (from other areas). Taxis are available from both stations. It is a short walk to the bus station from either station. Trains to Warrington from Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Piccadilly where you can connect with the bus service 588 for Leigh

Nothing about bus services from Birchwood, which is the rough equivalent of "Wrexham North" in this context.
I wouldn't hang my hat on an MoJ-funded specially-built station for prison traffic.

 

[tsubaki]

Reading that just makes it even more annoying that Denbigh - Chester was killed off; even the sad little remnant of the line that survived until the early 80s could have been of considerable use to residents nowadays, to judge by how full buses to Wrexham and Chester are at certain times.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Reading that just makes it even more annoying that Denbigh - Chester was killed off; even the sad little remnant of the line that survived until the early 80s could have been of considerable use to residents nowadays, to judge by how full buses to Wrexham and Chester are at certain times.

The Dee Marsh Jnc to Chester Northgate line had the magic continuous line in the Beeching passenger survey maps that showed passengers in excess of 10,000 per week Northgate was generating in excess of £ 1 million (at 2012 prices) in ticket sales. The report assumed it was a duplicate route and the traffic on it was mostly end to end that would divert.
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from Todays local Daily Post, reporter Steve Bagnall



http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/delay-rail-upgrade-north-wales-5377798

The printed copy was more substantial with the quote by the reporter Steve Bagnall "No one from Welsh Gov has denied the funds have already been spent in the South"

Bob

The politics is interesting Wales (the south) did very well out of UK Govt CP5 investment plans the WG have been lobbying hard for Crewe to Holyhead to be electrified in CP6 with UK Govt paying. Plenty of English regions got little in CP5 and are now lobbying hard for their schemes and are rather miffed an area with devolved govt and budget was prioritised ahead of them. The inference from the SoS is clear Westminster will not pay for North Wales Coast electrification unless WG puts its hand in its pocket for Wrexham redouble.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not trying to defend what's going on, but I don't see how the redoubling issue affects wider possible plans for North Wales electrification.
Wrexham-Chester was well down the likely list for electrification, because it would have to reach Wolverhampton to make any sense.

We still don't know what the "settlement" between DfT/Treasury and WG was that secured the Valleys and Swansea electrification (at a higher level than previously envisaged).
WG are plainly putting up some of the capital, but what proportion and where they are getting it from is a mystery.

 

[tsubaki]

The Dee Marsh Jnc to Chester Northgate line had the magic continuous line in the Beeching passenger survey maps that showed passengers in excess of 10,000 per week Northgate was generating in excess of £ 1 million (at 2012 prices) in ticket sales. The report assumed it was a duplicate route and the traffic on it was mostly end to end that would divert.

... and thats without the expansion of the towns along the route, the takings would be considerably more now even using the lines as they existed in 1980.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not trying to defend what's going on, but I don't see how the redoubling issue affects wider possible plans for North Wales electrification.
Wrexham-Chester was well down the likely list for electrification, because it would have to reach Wolverhampton to make any sense.

We still don't know what the "settlement" between DfT/Treasury and WG was that secured the Valleys and Swansea electrification (at a higher level than previously envisaged).
WG are plainly putting up some of the capital, but what proportion and where they are getting it from is a mystery.

£20 million contribution to Cardiff Area Re signalling from WG.
Sound railway reasons for wires continuing on GWML beyond Cardiff to Swansea and Valley Lines played a large part. Its also as compensation for HS2 not benefiting S Wales whereas trains will run from Scotlands major cities to London on it.

No one suggesting wires on Chester to Wrexham yet its all pressure to get WG to change minds and spend in area where there are Conservative interests. They are also aware that theirs disquiet within Labour in N Wales about the new Minister priorities and are stoking the fires.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not trying to defend what's going on, but I don't see how the redoubling issue affects wider possible plans for North Wales electrification.

I don't either.

North Wales electrification is one of my reasons for saying the trains from Wrexham (other than Gerald) should terminate at Chester rather than reversing for Holyhead. If the wires went up that might then lead to the north Wales coast having direct through trains to Birmingham rather than via Wrexham and Shrewsbury.

 

[transmanche]

North Wales electrification is one of my reasons for saying the trains from Wrexham (other than Gerald) should terminate at Chester rather than reversing for Holyhead.

Thus inconveniencing all the passengers who value the through trains between the North Wales Coast line and the Shrewsbury-Chester line

 

[Rhydgaled]

Thus inconveniencing all the passengers who value the through trains between the North Wales Coast line and the Shrewsbury-Chester line

Indeed, but surely you can say the same of the current service pattern inconveniencing all the passengers who would value through trains from Holyhead/Llandundo to Crewe/Birmingham if they existed. Which option would inconvenience the larger number of passengers?

And if you maintain the current hourly through service between Holyhead and Wrexham, how do you make a case for wiring the north Wales coast line?

I have at least three reasons for terminating Wrexham trains at Chester:

1. To support north Wales coast electrification
2. Geographic reality
   • Rail takes an indirect route from Llandudno to Wrexham, meaning services towards Crewe are likely to be more competitive
3. Diagramming flexibility
   • I imagine that far more passengers board/alight at Chester than remain on-board, so one side might require longer trains at different times than the other
   • ERTMS 158s are required on the Birmingham service, terminating them at Chester would allow the replacement Crewe/Manchester-Holyhead/Llanduno trains to be formed of any stock

 

[transmanche]

Indeed, but surely you can say the same of the current service pattern inconveniencing all the passengers who would value through trains from Holyhead/Llandundo to Crewe/Birmingham if they existed.

Last time I checked there were direct trains approx every two hours from Holyhead to Birmingham via Shrewsbury.

Redoubling Chester-Wrexham with associated speed improvements on the Chester-Shrewsbury line would decrease the time taken for these direct journeys, without having to go via Crewe and Stafford.

I imagine that far more passengers board/alight at Chester than remain on-board, so one side might require longer trains at different times than the other

That's probably true of all services calling at major junctions. But last time I was on a train from North Wales passing through Chester on its way to Birmingham, i was surprised how many people stayed on board... far more than I expected.

But if there are unequal loadings, then the answer for that is portion working: 2 units work from Holyhead to Chester, 1 unit goes forward to Birmingham via Shrewsbury and the other goes forward to Crewe,

 

[Rhydgaled]

Last time I checked there were direct trains approx every two hours from Holyhead to Birmingham via Shrewsbury.

Redoubling Chester-Wrexham with associated speed improvements on the Chester-Shrewsbury line would decrease the time taken for these direct journeys, without having to go via Crewe and Stafford.

Birmingam via Crewe, even with two changes (at Chester and Crewe), is faster than via Shrewsbury at present. Is the Chester - Wrexham upgrade really going to knock enough time off to balance that?

But if there are unequal loadings, then the answer for that is portion working: 2 units work from Holyhead to Chester, 1 unit goes forward to Birmingham via Shrewsbury and the other goes forward to Crewe,

I would not support portion working with 175s. No through corridor connections so you can't get into the right portion on-the-move if you board the wrong one. Also, going back to my point about geography, the Crewe portion would be more likely to need to be longer than the Wrexham/Shrewsbury one.

Plus, is maintaining regular through trains from Holyhead to Wrexham/Shrewsbury worth ditching any plans to wire the north Wales coast?

 

[merlodlliw]

The nearest the report (the technical one) gets to a location is "Rossett/Gresford area".
This is what the Ministry of Justice says about visiting Risley prison: http://www.justice.gov.uk/contacts/prison-finder/risley/visiting-information


Nothing about bus services from Birchwood, which is the rough equivalent of "Wrexham North" in this context.
I wouldn't hang my hat on an MoJ-funded specially-built station for prison traffic.

No one is suggesting MOJ pay for it, but Risley is a minnow compared to this 2000 inmate giant which has to be serviced.

 

[TDK]

"
Has anyone actually seen the volume of track relaying undertaken over the last 18months on this line??
We basically have a brand new railway between Wrexham & Shotton and linespeed enhancments should happen anytime soon. The down line relaying is all complete so linespeeds MAY increase in the down direction towards Bidston first.

Yes, and the reason? It certainly wasn't for the Wrexham to Bidston service as the track is, lets say poor from Shotton to Bidston, the reason why this has not been or will not be re-laid? Errrrm - cos the freight only goes to Dee marsh, I have been over the new track on many occasions and there is still quite a bit of jointed to be done in the down direction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But last time I was on a train from North Wales passing through Chester on its way to Birmingham, i was surprised how many people stayed on board... far more than I expected.

Running North Wales trains to Birmingham via Wrexham and Shrewsbury is a political and operational convenience discovered in 2004 by joining Holyhead-Chester to Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham.

There were winners and losers, the losers being all those who now have to struggle over the bridge at Chester for the Crewe connection which used to be a through service.
The Birmingham route is the best part of an hour quicker via Stafford most of the day, despite two changes.

While I don't begrudge better through services via Wrexham, I doubt we have ended up with a more convenient railway overall.
On Sundays, of course, the very thin service is still mostly focussed via Crewe.

 

[The Informer]

Yes, and the reason? It certainly wasn't for the Wrexham to Bidston service as the track is, lets say poor from Shotton to Bidston, the reason why this has not been or will not be re-laid? Errrrm - cos the freight only goes to Dee marsh, I have been over the new track on many occasions and there is still quite a bit of jointed to be done in the down direction.

Well it certainly wasn't done to please Corus and Castle Cement!!!

Maybe more to do with cost savings on maintenance regimes?

Linespeed increases to 50mph beyond Shotton so the track cannot be any worse than what it was from Wrexham. If and when Arriva want to run a quicker service to make the timetable more realistic then at least with the upgraded infrastructure in place it will be possible. The models have been run on software and talk of 60mph in places can be achievable.

Maybe we missed a bit of relaying on the down line between Exchange and Shotton...

Cant think where tho!!!

 

[transmanche]

I would not support portion working with 175s.

Who said it would have to be operated by 175s?

Also, going back to my point about geography, the Crewe portion would be more likely to need to be longer than the Wrexham/Shrewsbury one.

That's pure supposition on your part. Any facts to back it up?

Plus, is maintaining regular through trains from Holyhead to Wrexham/Shrewsbury worth ditching any plans to wire the north Wales coast?

The two are not mutually incompatible. Bi-modes are going to be a fact of UK railway life. So why not a bi-mode AGC-type train.
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The Birmingham route is the best part of an hour quicker via Stafford most of the day, despite two changes.

I think that's being somewhat creative with the truth

The fastest connection of the day (3h07) is at 04:48, not exactly convenient for most people. Most of the other fast connections tend to be using VT limited stop services, whereas the ATW direct trains tend to be the all stations stopper. I doubt you'd ever get a 175-operated service to keep to that sort of timing - and such a limited stop service would not be commercially attractive to ATW.

As it happens, most connections are not as fast as 3h07, they tend to be in the 3h30-3h50 region. So at best we're talking about a 30 min saving by skipping stops and going via Crewe & Stafford. Which I reckon becomes a negligible difference if you compare like-with-like calling patterns and add in the speed improvements on the Chester-Shrewsbury section.

 

[PHILIPE]

If tou want to travel from Holyhead to Crewe or London, there are through VT

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think that's being somewhat creative with the truth

The Chester-New St time via Wrexham is 1h58m, every 2 hours.
In the alternate hours you can change at Shrewsbury for 10min longer.

If you miss the nn30 through train ex Chester, and catch the nn35 VT and then change into VT again at Crewe you will be into New St in 1h20m, every hour, 33 min before the AW through train shows up.
Another option is the nn55 AW from Chester, changing into LM at Crewe for a journey time of 1h23m, also every hour.

Alright, only 35-38m quicker, but you get the point.
Why would anyone choose the longer/less frequent journey?
Through passengers are paying for the convenience in a much longer journey time.
There is the odd early/late through train via Stafford (VT, AW) and one roundabout AW via both Crewe and Shrewsbury.
Admittedly, LM have spoilt the party by increasing the via Crewe fares significantly (despite not operating any through trains).

 

[transmanche]

Alright, only 35-38m quicker, but you get the point.

That's quite a bit different from 'an hour'. And as I said, when you factor in linespeed improvements on the Chester-Shrewsbury section (and you have a like-for-like calling pattern on the North Wales Coast line) then the difference between a train via Wrexham and Shrewsbury or one via Crewe and Stafford will not be big enough for the travelling public to care about.

 

[TDK]

Well it certainly wasn't done to please Corus and Castle Cement!!!

Maybe more to do with cost savings on maintenance regimes?

Linespeed increases to 50mph beyond Shotton so the track cannot be any worse than what it was from Wrexham. If and when Arriva want to run a quicker service to make the timetable more realistic then at least with the upgraded infrastructure in place it will be possible. The models have been run on software and talk of 60mph in places can be achievable.

Maybe we missed a bit of relaying on the down line between Exchange and Shotton...

Cant think where tho!!!

It is still jointed between Shotton and Harwarden. The track after Dee Marsh is in a poor state in comparison with most routes and 50 is certainly a top speed. So Mr. Informer tell me how much time will be saved then? There are not many places you will get 60mph between the stations in a class 150 between Wrexham and Shotton, only from Buckley to Shotton in the other direction you are lucky to get 40 from a 150 up those steep gradients. To be fair, up the line speed and keep the timings the same and us drivers will get maybe a 5 minute break at Bidston instead of a minus 1.

If you work for NR why don't you get a cab ride, can you get a cab pass for observing the track?, I will take you if you have the correct documentation. PM me if you are interested.

 

[transmanche]

If you miss the nn30 through train ex Chester, and catch the nn35 VT and then change into VT again at Crewe you will be into New St in 1h20m, every hour, 33 min before the AW through train shows up.
Another option is the nn55 AW from Chester, changing into LM at Crewe for a journey time of 1h23m, also every hour.

A Chester-Birmingham service via Crewe and Stafford is a very different kettle of fish to a Holyhead-Birmingham service via the same route. Is a service that calls only at Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS viable?

But again your timings don't seem to tie-in with the reality of the timetable. If you take the xx:35 VT from Chester, NRE offers the x1:22 LM service as a connection at Crewe - with typical journey times of 1h43 - 20 mins longer than you claimed.