Voyager reservations - failing again!!

[ValleyLines142]

Does anyone find that CrossCountry's seat reservation system is constantly NEVER working? I'm currently on the 1530 Penzance to Leeds, which despite being a pair of 220s (027+026), is still relatively busy. My seat reservation says 'Available - maybe reserved later Plymouth to Leeds', which obviously isn't the case.

As such, someone is sat in my seat and I've had to challenge them, to which they clearly don't understand. To make matters worse, the 1500 Penzance to Paddington terminated at Plymouth today because of a derailed train.

Have CrossCountry actually made ANY attempt to rectify this constant issue? It is SO highly awkward (especially in the Quie Zone) when you have to ask someone to move!!

 

[yorkie]

My seat reservation says 'Available...

As such, someone is sat in my seat and I've had to challenge them, to which they clearly don't understand.!

No, you don't understand (despite this cropping up before!)

If reservations are not available (e.g. it may be a set swap, a printer failure or in the case of XC, they just have an awful system) then no-one can enforce reservations, so you find an alternative seat.

 

[Goatboy]

The Voyager I am on has paper tickets in the seats... Ironically far easier to easily see how reserved a seat is.

 

[VT_Valenta]

The system is total ****. But then, why would you want to reserve a seat on a Voyager?! Standing in the vestibule getting high of the pine toilet cleaner is far more comfortable I find! :P

 

[ValleyLines142]

No, you don't understand (despite this cropping up before!)

If reservations are not available (e.g. it may be a set swap, a printer failure or in the case of XC, they just have an awful system) then no-one can enforce reservations, so you find an alternative seat.

That's not very practible though - can you imagine how much chaos that procedure would cause? It's already utter carnage at the best of times; let alone with that enforced!!

So for example, I am making a journey from Darlington to Redruth, just for fictional purposes; a journey which takes just over eight hours. I am reserved in Coach F Seat 16. When I get on at Darlington, someone is sat in my 'reserved' seat, innocently, by all means, because the reservation system has failed. I then have no option but to instead move to another seat, say, seat 25 for example. At Sheffield, someone gets on and I happen to be in their seat. They then challenge me. I then say 'Sorry, but the reservation system is broken. I had a reserved seat too, but I have lost my entitlement so this journey, despite being nearly twelve hours end to end, is now running on a first come first served/sit anywhere you like basis'. On journeys as lengthy as CrossCountry operates, that example scenario above can happen involving every single seat in one particular coach, up to the point where people have no option but to stand. If I was an elderly or disabled or pregnant passenger, would you turn around to me and say seat reservations are axed on this service, therefore you just have to sit elsewhere or stand? I certainly don't think you would.

You also have to take into consideration those who have conditions such as social anxiety or learning difficulties. How do you explain to them that your seat is effectively cancelled? Or even worse, how does a person with learning difficulties or social anxiety issues claim their seat, or what do they do when they find a seat, only for them to then be challenged by another passenger? They won't understand, because nobody is aware of this policy!

Why should we, who have chosen a seat reservation with our booking, have to lose it because of a fault of the railway, which we cannot be blamed for. Why should I have to potentially stand? It's not on I'm sorry.

The solution is thus - we claim our seats, even if it is by means of showing the offending passenger our seat reservations. For those who haven't got a reservation, then quite frankly it's tough titties. It is not difficult to go into a ticket office and say 'Can I make a seat reservation on the <time> service from A to B please'. Most TOCs, despite the fact that some should be charging £5 per reservation, will do this absolutely free. And yes, some people may be flexible and decide to get an earlier or later train, but then they sacrifice getting a seat for that. It's not fair to us, who are on Advance tickets and have no other alternative service to travel on, where we have to stand because of last-minute, casual late travellers.

The simple answer is this - ditch the electronic system, and stick to paper tickets in the tops of seats. They even do this in some cases; I had one on one particular journey which I kept!!

I am currently in the process of complaining/suggesting this to XC about this too.

The Voyager I am on has paper tickets in the seats... Ironically far easier to easily see how reserved a seat is.

Exactly so. It makes so much more sense too. You can also clearly distinguish, when on board the train walking through and when it approaches a station, which seats are free and which ones aren't, as they don't have a huge label poking out of the top!!

The system is total ****.

Couldn't agree with you more!

But then, why would you want to reserve a seat on a Voyager?! Standing in the vestibule getting high of the pine toilet cleaner is far more comfortable I find! :P

Haha! Each to their own I suppose! :P

 

[moogal]

No, you don't understand (despite this cropping up before!)

If reservations are not available (e.g. it may be a set swap, a printer failure or in the case of XC, they just have an awful system) then no-one can enforce reservations, so you find an alternative seat.

Yes, but this technicality isn't obvious to the average person. Without knowing that rule, what any reasonable person would do is approach the person in that seat, show them your ticket with reservation and ask them to move.

(I'm not saying this is right or wrong, before everyone jumps on, but the "reservations failed so no reservations" thing isn't as intuitive as you might think)

 

[Greenback]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, before everyone jumps on, but the "reservations failed so no reservations" thing isn't as intuitive as you might think)

There's nothing wrong with them asking me to move from 'their' seat, but there's nothing wrong with me refusing either!

 

[yorkie]

So for example, I am making a journey from Darlington to Redruth....

Then it would be unreasonable to ask you to move seats at each stop! The vast majority of journeys are made on trains without reservations, you simply find a spare seat and sit in it.

You can't have a system where you can be asked to move constantly.

If I was an elderly or disabled or pregnant passenger, would you turn around to me and say seat reservations are axed on this service, therefore you just have to sit elsewhere or stand? I certainly don't think you would.

But I think you'll find elderly, disabled or pregnant passengers on many non-reservable trains, and if they ask for a seat, someone will give up their seat!

You also have to take into consideration those who have conditions such as social anxiety or learning difficulties. How do you explain to them that your seat is effectively cancelled?

By saying "Sorry, there are no reservations, sit in any available seat you can find" - easy!

Or even worse, how does a person with learning difficulties or social anxiety issues claim their seat, or what do they do when they find a seat, only for them to then be challenged by another passenger? They won't understand, because nobody is aware of this policy!

If they can't understand the principle that there are no reservations then that would be the least of their worries!

Why should we, who have chosen a seat reservation with our booking, have to lose it because of a fault of the railway, which we cannot be blamed for. Why should I have to potentially stand? It's not on I'm sorry.

Tough. Things happen! EC has a 'Seat Guarantee' Scheme which gives the holder of a reservation compensation if there are no seats available. XC should do the same.

The solution is thus - we claim our seats, even if it is by means of showing the offending passenger our seat reservations.

Not on. The passenger who sits in an 'available' seat is not "offending"; you are!

You can't expect someone to move at every stop due to invisible reservations being in force.

For those who haven't got a reservation, then quite frankly it's tough titties

Nope. If there are no reservations on a train then for those who have reservations, it's tough!

It is not difficult to go into a ticket office and say 'Can I make a seat reservation on the <time> service from A to B please'. Most TOCs, despite the fact that some should be charging £5 per reservation, will do this absolutely free.

And if all passengers did this, queues at ticket offices would be even worse than they are now! And most passengers travel on walk-up tickets for a reason!

And yes, some people may be flexible and decide to get an earlier or later train, but then they sacrifice getting a seat for that. It's not fair to us, who are on Advance tickets and have no other alternative service to travel on, where we have to stand because of last-minute, casual late travellers.

The vast majority of passengers are not on Advance tickets and, on average, have paid a significantly higher price for their tickets.

The simple answer is this - ditch the electronic system, and stick to paper tickets in the tops of seats. They even do this in some cases; I had one on one particular journey which I kept!!

I agree with that, but even trains with paper tickets can end up with no reservations e.g. due to disruption.

I am currently in the process of complaining/suggesting this to XC about this too.

I agree with a suggestion of ditching their online system, but I can guarantee they will ignore such a suggestion.

 

[moogal]

There's nothing wrong with them asking me to move from 'their' seat, but there's nothing wrong with me refusing either!

Absolutely. My point was that it's not automatically apparent to your average passenger that their reservations have become invalid.

 

[IanD]

I travelled from Milton Keynes to Stranraer and back on Wednesday on Advance tickets. On the outward journey, the system wasn't working. However, the train manager announced that people with reservations should take their booked seats and those without reservations should make their way to coach E (I think, as it was a 9 car pendolino). He didn't say what they should do if they found their seats occupied, presumably ask people to move and risk the usual argument.

On the return journey, boarding at Carlisle, the system wasn't working again so I grabbed the nearest empty seat. When the train manger came round I asked him what had happened to the reservations as I was "worried that I'd be penalised for sitting in the wrong seat" (obviously, I wasn't, I just wanted to see what he would say). His response was that the reserved seat was still mine and he would ask the person sitting in it to move if I wanted, or if I wanted a table seat I could move to coach F or U which were virtually empty (thought he was having a dig with the F U bit but it was an 11 car pendolino so maybe not ). I said I'd stay where I was. However, at round about Lancaster, some of the reservations began to display correctly so now the seat I was in was showing as Available to Preston. Luckily no-one came to chuck me out at Preston but I would have been most unimpressed if they had done. My originally booked seat was still showing only the seat number and no text.

So, it seems that the two train managers I encountered believe that reservations are still valid if the display is not working.

 

[Welshman]

If I was an elderly or disabled or pregnant passenger, would you turn around to me and say seat reservations are axed on this service, therefore you just have to sit elsewhere or stand? I certainly don't think you would.

The solution is thus - we claim our seats, even if it is by means of showing the offending passenger our seat reservations. For those who haven't got a reservation, then quite frankly it's tough titties.

You wouldn't make an elderly or disabled or pregnant passenger, whose "reserved" seat you were inadvertently occupying, stand. Good. Fair enough.

So what if you claim your "reserved" seat, and find the "offending" passenger, who had no idea it was reserved, happens to be elderly, disabled or pregnant?

 

[bb21]

I travelled from Milton Keynes to Stranraer and back on Wednesday on Advance tickets. On the outward journey, the system wasn't working. However, the train manager announced that people with reservations should take their booked seats and those without reservations should make their way to coach E (I think, as it was a 9 car pendolino). He didn't say what they should do if they found their seats occupied, presumably ask people to move and risk the usual argument.

Yes. Coach E is the unreserved coach on a 9-car Pendolino.

On the return journey, boarding at Carlisle, the system wasn't working again so I grabbed the nearest empty seat. When the train manger came round I asked him what had happened to the reservations as I was "worried that I'd be penalised for sitting in the wrong seat" (obviously, I wasn't, I just wanted to see what he would say). His response was that the reserved seat was still mine and he would ask the person sitting in it to move if I wanted, or if I wanted a table seat I could move to coach F or U which were virtually empty (thought he was having a dig with the F U bit but it was an 11 car pendolino so maybe not ). I said I'd stay where I was. However, at round about Lancaster, some of the reservations began to display correctly so now the seat I was in was showing as Available to Preston. Luckily no-one came to chuck me out at Preston but I would have been most unimpressed if they had done. My originally booked seat was still showing only the seat number and no text.

Likewise, Coaches F and U are the unreserved coaches on an 11-car Pendolino.

So, it seems that the two train managers I encountered believe that reservations are still valid if the display is not working.

Where an unreservable coach(es) exists, it is a good policy to recommend that people without reservations to head there, thereby eliminating risks of potential arguments. However this is not always possible, eg. FGW HST, 4-car Voyagers and East Coast.

There is no industry standard that I am aware of. AFAIK EC, FGW, EMT, TPE and GA all enforce the "first come, first served" policy if no reservation is shown and I have heard such announcements by guards on these TOCs, typically only at the very beginning of a journey however so people who board at subsequent stations may not be aware. A lot of the guards will also endorse the tickets if one holds a reservation but ended up without a seat, for some goodwill compensation. I have not enquired with Virgin so do not know what their policy is.

XC is the only one who it is impossible to get an answer out of. I first enquired with them a good six months back, and despite follow-ups, am still waiting a response. If anyone can get an answer out of them, then I would be interested to hear from them.

There is no right or wrong answer. Whatever the approach, some people will be upset. Playing musical chairs is no better a solution than a "free for all" approach.

 

[Zoe]

Where an unreservable coach(es) exists, it is a good policy to recommend that people without reservations to head there, thereby eliminating risks of potential arguments. However this is not always possible, eg. FGW HST, 4-car Voyagers and East Coast.

FGW HSTs at least until recently had an unreserved coach, has this now been discontinued?

 

[bb21]

FGW HSTs at least until recently had an unreserved coach, has this now been discontinued?

A few months back I travelled on a 2+8 HST to Penzance, which was completely reserved throughout barring a few odd seats, so I guess the answer is yes.

 

[ValleyLines142]

A few months back I travelled on a 2+8 HST to Penzance, which was completely reserved throughout barring a few odd seats, so I guess the answer is yes.

That's odd. Coach E on an FGW HST is the unreserved coach. I always sit there on my travels to Bristol. Coach F, in the case of Low Density HST sets (i.e. the ones with only two First Class carriages and the smaller buffet counter), is also an unreserved coach (think it's Low Density).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....By saying "Sorry, there are no reservations, sit in any available seat you can find" - easy!

....

If they can't understand the principle that there are no reservations then that would be the least of their worries!....

To be fair, explaining things to people with learning difficulties isn't always "easy", no matter how politely or simply you put it. It's called 'learning difficulties' for a reason.

....Tough. Things happen! EC has a 'Seat Guarantee' Scheme which gives the holder of a reservation compensation if there are no seats available. XC should do the same....

The passenger can claim back any reservation fee paid.

....And if all passengers did this, queues at ticket offices would be even worse than they are now! And most passengers travel on walk-up tickets for a reason!....

Moreover, officially passengers can only hold one reservation per single ticket (two for a return - one each way), so there is a good chance that seats will be reserved and never used (causing more people to stand than is necessary), because the passenger ends up on another train (which is why they had a walk-up ticket rather than an Advance in the first place!).

....or if I wanted a table seat I could move to coach F or U which were virtually empty (thought he was having a dig with the F U bit but it was an 11 car pendolino so maybe not )....

The guard on the train I was on yesterday announced "coaches U and F" as being unreserved on the PA, rather than the other way round (as you might have expected for any other coach letters), so maybe there was a hidden message for you......

 

[thelongestroad]

A few months back I travelled on a 2+8 HST to Penzance, which was completely reserved throughout barring a few odd seats, so I guess the answer is yes.

Coach E should always be unreserved. The only reason I can think why it woud be otherwise is that perhaps the set is short formed; and missing coach A, B, C, or F.*


*Depending on set density type.

 

[221129]

Coach E should always be unreserved. The only reason I can think why it woud be otherwise is that perhaps the set is short formed; and missing coach A, B, C, or F.*


*Depending on set density type.

F is usually unreserved as well on Micro Buffet sets.

 

[thelongestroad]

F is usually unreserved as well on Micro Buffet sets.

Yes, quite! I missed out coach D from my post too.

 

[Greenback]

Absolutely. My point was that it's not automatically apparent to your average passenger that their reservations have become invalid.

That is a point that I am in compelte agreement with.

So, it seems that the two train managers I encountered believe that reservations are still valid if the display is not working.

This should not be too surprising. Some train managers seem eager to invent their own rules. Some even deny the existence of the Routeing Guide!

Where an unreservable coach(es) exists, it is a good policy to recommend that people without reservations to head there, thereby eliminating risks of potential arguments. However this is not always possible, eg. FGW HST, 4-car Voyagers and East Coast.

Ther eis also the fact that the unreserved coach has a finite capacity so it would be impossible on many busy trains to do this.

There is no industry standard that I am aware of.

This is a problem.

AFAIK EC, FGW, EMT, TPE and GA all enforce the "first come, first served" policy if no reservation is shown and I have heard such announcements by guards on these TOCs, typically only at the very beginning of a journey however so people who board at subsequent stations may not be aware. A lot of the guards will also endorse the tickets if one holds a reservation but ended up without a seat, for some goodwill compensation. I have not enquired with Virgin so do not know what their policy is.

I don't really see how any other policy can work in practice.

XC is the only one who it is impossible to get an answer out of. I first enquired with them a good six months back, and despite follow-ups, am still waiting a response. If anyone can get an answer out of them, then I would be interested to hear from them.

According to my sources withn XC, TM's are instructed to evict passengers without reservations, even when the reservation is 'invisible'. I have also been told that this is under review internally, presumably due to the amount fo complaints from passengers, sorry, victims, who are forced to play musical chairs for the journey!

There is no right or wrong answer. Whatever the approach, some people will be upset. Playing musical chairs is no better a solution than a "free for all" approach.

The best approach is to ensure that reservations are displayed! Other than that, the abandonment of reservations is the only way to deal with the situation when they are not displayed.

 

[387star]

The system is total ****. But then, why would you want to reserve a seat on a Voyager?! Standing in the vestibule getting high of the pine toilet cleaner is far more comfortable I find! :P

wait.. they use toilet cleaner?

 

[bb21]

Coach E should always be unreserved. The only reason I can think why it woud be otherwise is that perhaps the set is short formed; and missing coach A, B, C, or F.*


*Depending on set density type.

Aye. If that is the case then it is possible that I miscounted the carriages.

There was definitely no unreserved coach. Given that it was a Saturday morning train into Cornwall, I just thought that it was common place.

 

[CC 72100]

There was definitely no unreserved coach. Given that it was a Saturday morning train into Cornwall, I just thought that it was common place.

More proof that services West of Plymouth do not merely cart fresh air around, as some seem to think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Coach E should always be unreserved. The only reason I can think why it woud be otherwise is that perhaps the set is short formed; and missing coach A, B, C, or F.

Would reservations also be moved if there was a problem with another coach on the set. For example, say if coach B had no air con, the reservations are moved to coach E which have an identical layout? (As does coach D).

 

[ValleyLines142]

Would reservations also be moved if there was a problem with another coach on the set. For example, say if coach B had no air con, the reservations are moved to coach E which have an identical layout? (As does coach D).

Yes. This does happen now and again. Usually if there's a coach missing, or sometimes it is literally done in human error.

 

[ValleyLines142]

To be fair, explaining things to people with learning difficulties isn't always "easy", no matter how politely or simply you put it. It's called 'learning difficulties' for a reason.

I completely agree with this. It is so tough for disabled passengers, and I have huge admiration for how they challenge every day life.

I have to say, most passengers are very understanding when they are sat in your seat. If you show them your seat reservation ticket, they are always willing to move. This is so polite and considerate, especially to those who as I say are disabled or have learning difficulties.

 

[dcsprior]

No, you don't understand (despite this cropping up before!)

If reservations are not available (e.g. it may be a set swap, a printer failure or in the case of XC, they just have an awful system) then no-one can enforce reservations, so you find an alternative seat.

I wish when this happened, that the guard announced at every station that reservations were cancelled.

Tough. Things happen! EC has a 'Seat Guarantee' Scheme which gives the holder of a reservation compensation if there are no seats available. XC should do the same.

Yes, though the EC scheme is less valuable than it seems at first glance you can only claim under either that or Delay Repay - I've only ever seen cancelled reservations on EC twice, both during severe disruption when the affected passengers would've had the exact same refund under Delay Repay anyway.

 

[bb21]

More proof that services West of Plymouth do not merely cart fresh air around, as some seem to think.

Obviously it wasn't wedged by the time it got past Plymouth, but it was still busy nonetheless and pretty much 75% of the seats were taken.

I have on occasion boarded Cornwall HSTs at Exeter and the service was completely wedged in several instances.

 

[Greenback]

I've boarded HSt's at both Liskeard and Par where it was difficult to find a seat. I won't say impossible as I couldn't be bothered to walk through the whole train looking for one, so there might have been one or two somewhere!