Train Crash near Santiago de Compostela, Spain.

[ralphchadkirk]

Which is exactly what we are told to do until we have a suitable witness if ever we are involved in any sort of incident.

Indeed. In any sort of incident it is best to use that right until a lawyer is present.

 

[jon0844]

The media knows this too, but can still report it in a way that gets some of Joe Public to assume automatically that he has something to hide and is therefore guilty.

 

[AndyLandy]

Question, does RENFE use AWP or whatever the abbreviation is to override the driver?

I can't remember where I read it, but I recall seeing a statement along the lines of "The train was fitted with AWP, but it was disabled at the time of the incident."

Make of that what you will. I'm not sure I know what to make of it...

 

[Giugiaro]

No ERTMS at the time. The train was already in a ASFA branch. Please read the previous posts, this has been explained several times.

 

[bnm]

No ERTMS at the time. The train was already in a ASFA branch. Please read the previous posts, this has been explained several times.

And was it ASFA several kilometres away from the curve where the train should have began slowing?

 

[Giugiaro]

It as been confirmed by Adif that the ERTMS system is not activate in the whole line for Alvia trains. Renfe hasn't homologated this system for the Alvia services so the train does all the service under ASFA.

This also means that throughout the high speed line Alvia trains DO NOT have any speed control.

Only Avant trains have homologated ERTMS in the Ourense to Santiago high speed line.


Now the big question is, who has the major responsibility over this accident? The driver who neglected the normal way to drive the train safely, or RENFE for not having an automatic speed control enforced on all his trains despite the availability?

 

[jon0844]

A combination of the two I hope. If there are a series of tunnels that could disorientate the driver, and by the time you realised it would be too late, I'd begin to put more blame on the railway company. It would be an accident waiting to happen.

We obviously need to wait and see, but I doubt the driver can be solely to blame. I don't believe there's any proof of the driver taking undue risks because he has bragged about going 200kph and imagining what the cops would think. I've said the same doing 140mph in Germany. It was quite obviously a reference to what traffic police would think, and such not illegal or reckless in any way.

 

[edwin_m]

It as been confirmed by Adif that the ERTMS system is not activate in the whole line for Alvia trains. Renfe hasn't homologated this system for the Alvia services so the train does all the service under ASFA.

This also means that throughout the high speed line Alvia trains DO NOT have any speed control.

Only Avant trains have homologated ERTMS in the Ourense to Santiago high speed line.


Now the big question is, who has the major responsibility over this accident? The driver who neglected the normal way to drive the train safely, or RENFE for not having an automatic speed control enforced on all his trains despite the availability?

Does ASFA provide equivalent protection on the high speed section in terms of stopping trains exceeding their authority before they can collide with another train? If so then this isn't a direct safety issue - a simpler train control system may increase the minimum interval between trains but I can't imagine this line is anywhere close to maximum capacity so that makes little difference.

It does however become a safety issue if, as appears to be so, the low speed curve at the end of the high speed section does not have any speed supervision. Do we also know whether the Avant train remains under ERTMS supervision on this curve? If so then any delay in getting homologation (effectively equipment approval) for the Alvia would be a direct contributory factor to the accident.

 

[68000]

It as been confirmed by Adif that the ERTMS system is not activate in the whole line for Alvia trains. Renfe hasn't homologated this system for the Alvia services so the train does all the service under ASFA.

This also means that throughout the high speed line Alvia trains DO NOT have any speed control.

Only Avant trains have homologated ERTMS in the Ourense to Santiago high speed line.


Now the big question is, who has the major responsibility over this accident? The driver who neglected the normal way to drive the train safely, or RENFE for not having an automatic speed control enforced on all his trains despite the availability?

I am really surprised that the service does not even use ETCS!

 

[Teaboy1]

Thanks Giugiaro at last something that I feel is the real issue here and one that RENFE must own upto. If RENFE are found guilty of penny-pinching then they are surely culpable of corprate negligence??
Yes driver failed [for whatever reasons, brake failure, speeding, complancancy??] but greater failure by RENFE IMHO.
Lets see if judge and his enquiry get to this conclusion!!

 

[notadriver]

What was the maximum service speed of the train? From the photos it appears to be 200 kph. That being the case Britain has trains operating on the ECML at that speed without continuous speed monitoring - I believe the only country in the world left to do so.

 

[jon0844]

You presumably only need protection where the speed limit falls below the maximum permitted. The train can then be fitted with a limiter, and that should be enough.

Now I have to assume the Mk4s don't have limiters, having been on one that did 140mph for a section to make up time.

So there's a chance a driver could go above 125mph, and not be slowed down? However, that is surely a fairly low risk than doing 125mph but not slowing for a tight curve.

 

[notadriver]

Most European countries employ some kind of speed supervision for line speeds above 100 mph. And the Class 91s aren't speed limited but braking distances are compromised at higher speeds. The trial with flashing greens has long since ended and drivers are professional and disciplined to stay within all speed limits without needing a limiter.

 

[D1009]

As a matter of interest, when did the flashing greens end?

 

[jon0844]

I thought they still do?

 

[transportphoto]

Sky News Newsdesk (@SkyNewsBreak) tweeted at 10:31 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2013:

Spain train crash driver formally charged with reckless homicide - freed on bail

(https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/361599755257774082)

 

[Antman]

Driver has been charged with reckless homicide according to news reports

 

[Crossover]

That makes me wonder, even despite the apparent excessive speed, whether the train could have safely negotiated the curve if it had been an all electric Talgo 250 (RENFE Class 130).

I had wondered the same thing. It does seem that the generator car going brought the rest over with it, but whether it would have made it without is difficult to say

As a matter of interest, when did the flashing greens end?

I thought they still do?

They do in places, as after the trial they weren't removed. However, they aren't now used for 140 running, but I guess can be used by drivers to indicate if they get a flashing green that the next signal should be at least a green, so it may help to regulate the service in some ways.

 

[Giugiaro]

Do we also know whether the Avant train remains under ERTMS supervision on this curve? If so then any delay in getting homologation (effectively equipment approval) for the Alvia would be a direct contributory factor to the accident.

[youtube]gO6jLyEJUvc[/youtube]

From the front video of a normal Alvia run, it's possible to see Eurobalizes throughout the whole branch paired with ASFA balizes, so in theory there is ERTMS in the final branch (for Avant trains).

But since the train in the video is a Alvia, what you hear instead is the ASFA buzzer.

 

[ReverendFozz]

[youtube]gO6jLyEJUvc[/youtube]

From the front video of a normal Alvia run, it's possible to see Eurobalizes throughout the whole branch paired with ASFA balizes, so in theory there is ERTMS in the final branch (for Avant trains).

But since the train in the video is a Alvia, what you hear instead is the ASFA buzzer.

What is the driver being charged with, is there a combination of charges, sure I heard 79 counts of Manslaughter, is there some charge like a railway equivalent of careless driving.

What is the punishment he is facing, is he facing a very long time in Prison or would he be able to plea bargain, I guess he will need a bloody good lawyer, but by the sounds of it questions need to be directed at RENFE too

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us remember that any charges brought will be done so in relation to the laws applicable in Spain. Whilst we may hold to our own personal views on the matter, we should not attempt to draw comparisons to the laws so applying in other European countries.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. Processes, legal definitions and even evidential standards vary rather a lot. Hell, they vary significantly between the two main juristications of the UK.

 

[swj99]

What is the punishment he is facing.........

I guess this might depend on whether he is ultimately found guilty or not.

Or does their legal system have a presumption of innocent until proved Spanish ?

 

[jon0844]

Assuming he wasn't just trying to see how fast he could take a tight curve, and I doubt anyone would do that, it would seem to me like a grave error. One that he perhaps realised when it was too late to do anything.

Sure, he'll probably be found responsible for manslaughter, but I'd be placing more blame on the railway company/industry/Government for not having some sort of safety system in place to ensure that it could never happen in the first place.

From a justice point of view, it will be important to see that justice is done - and there aren't any attempts to simply lay all the blame on the driver.

In the case of many air crashes that were put down to human area, the families of victims are often not happy to see one person take the blame when they do realise and appreciate that people can make mistakes. In some cases, they can forgive the pilot (although in contrast, I believe there was one person - an air traffic controller? - that was murdered by the father of one victim).

Let's just hope things are done fairly and properly, and we find out the whole truth.

 

[bnm]

although in contrast, I believe there was one person - an air traffic controller? - that was murdered by the father of one victim

Indeed. A very sad story of a husband and father absolutely mentally broken by the death of his entire immediate family. Although the subsequent hero worship given him by his countrymen in North Ossetia (where there is a long tradition of blood feuds) is somewhat unsettling. The murderer of the air traffic controller is now a government minister North Ossetia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev

 

[CC 72100]

In some cases, they can forgive the pilot (although in contrast, I believe there was one person - an air traffic controller? - that was murdered by the father of one victim).

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Überlingen_mid-air_collision

 

[Giugiaro]

Again, without any article in English about the subject, here's what's new:

The driver, Francisco José Garzón, admitted being in over-speed when arriving at the tight curve and that he tried to brake the train, but already too late.

According to some participants in the trial, Francisco José Garzón also admitted that he thought that he was still way back in the branch and he only noticed the tight curve already upon it.

Luis Aláez, the judge, decided not to apply preventive detention, but instead the driver has to present himself every week on court and his passport and railway drivers licence removed for 6 months.

Investigations on the mobile phone recordings, radio and surveillance microphone in the train's cabin will start soon, as well as investigations in the locomotive itself and the surviving passengers.


It is to be remembered that Francisco José Garzón admitted since the beginning that he was in over-speed and that he wanted to die there if anyone in the train got injured or died.

Also, the absence of automatic speed warnings available in the Alvia series of trains may have contributed seriously to the accident, as not only the driver wasn't warned about the incoming speed restriction, the train isn't automatically braked if the driver doesn't react.


I'll notice everyone of anything relevant once there's proper source to it.

-> http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/29/galicia/1375096864_017240.html

 

[Zoidberg]

Again, without any article in English about the subject, here's what's new:

...

I'll notice everyone of anything relevant once there's proper source to it.

-> http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/29/galicia/1375096864_017240.html

Thanks for the update.

 

[jon0844]

Sky News now reporting the driver was on his phone and that it was doing 119mph.

 

[Zoidberg]

Sky News now reporting the driver was on his phone and that it was doing 119mph.

The BBC has Tweeted the same with a link to it's 30 July 2013 @ 15:33 article which has not yet been updated.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Article now posted http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507348

An extract:

The train driver in last week's crash in Spain was talking on the phone when it derailed, investigators say.

The train was travelling at 192km/h (119mph) at the time, investigators at the Court of Justice of Galicia said.

Francisco Jose Garzon Amo was speaking to members of staff at the state-owned railway company, Renfe, they added.