Questions about High Speed Railways

[gordonthemoron]

exactly

 

[30907]

This was almost certainly a crash caused by higher speed than permitted, but at 120mph-odd it's not "high speed" in the modern sense (HS1,TGV, etc), and I think it's reasonably clear that speeds in this range are cost-effective (not least because they don't require new lines).

There is (presumably) a point at which TGV/Shinkansen speed levels might become uneconomic (or environmentally inappropriate), even though technically feasible, but that's another discussion.

 

[HSTEd]

It appears that 320kph is the top economic level for high speed rail.
360kph is probably too expensive as the Japanese and Chinese have both concluded.

 

[Hellfire]

Spain has one of the most modern and hi-tech railway systems in the world.

As others have pointed out this was not a high speed train, it was a conventional inter-city express. I think the OP is being somewhat presumptuous in suggesting this tragic accident should be seen as a reason to question the safety of HS rail.

I am certainly not going to speculate on the cause of this crash, that will emerge. But I would be surprised if it was an infrastructure failure.

This huge number of deaths is tragic and nothing can take away our horror at he crash and our sympathy for loved ones. But, the fact is, that the number of deaths in this accident equates to the number of people killed on Spanish roads each fortnight in 2011 according to World Health Organisation figures.

I'll take high speed rail every time.

 

[Bungle73]

Spain has one of the most modern and hi-tech railway systems in the world.

As others have pointed out this was not a high speed train, it was a conventional inter-city express. I think the OP is being somewhat presumptuous in suggesting this tragic accident should be seen as a reason to question the safety of HS rail.

I am certainly not going to speculate on the cause of this crash, that will emerge. But I would be surprised if it was an infrastructure failure.

This huge number of deaths is tragic and nothing can take away our horror at he crash and our sympathy for loved ones. But, the fact is, that the number of deaths in this accident equates to the number of people killed on Spanish roads each fortnight in 2011 according to World Health Organisation figures.

I'll take high speed rail every time.

Spanish "rail experts" (whoever they are) have expressed an opinion (according to the Guardian website) that some kind of techincal failure was probably responsible for this accdient. That would make sense to me. Considering the extreme nature of the overspeed, it seems unlikely to me it was simply a driver fault, or least not entirely.

 

[HSTEd]

If anything this accident demonstrates some of the problems that can be created by only partially upgrading railway lines.
There would not be an 80kph curve at the end of a racing straight like that on an all new build line.

 

[Hellfire]

Considering the extreme nature of the overspeed, it seems unlikely to me it was simply a driver fault, or least not entirely.

Amazing how many "experts" appear after incidents like this. I'm going to wait for the inquiry.

 

[Engineer]

Very strange that a Spanish top link driver, 5 minutes late to over speed by so much, he obviously made that one in a million error and forgot where he was. Why did EMRTS not warn or apply action, as DD mentioned in earlier post. Note the heavy leading power car, with lower centre of gravity, stayed on the rails until a following carriage de- railed. Economics mean on long distance go fast or no one uses.

 

[Holly]

More than one death per week on the average on the London Underground train system. Far and away the most dangerous railways in the UK.

So when was the last UK fatality involving a goods/freight train, loco or wagon?

 

[Bungle73]

Very strange that a Spanish top link driver, 5 minutes late to over speed by so much,

That's why I, and the "experts" are of the opinon that there have must been some kind of techincal failure

More than one death per week on the average on the London Underground train system. Far and away the most dangerous railways in the UK.

But I'm sure most/all of them are suicides and none at all are due to train accidents. When was the last time a train accident caused a passenger death on the Tube? A long, long time ago.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think its fair to include obvious suicides in these figures.
Since they are essentially impossible to stop.

 

[transmanche]

When was the last time a train accident caused a passenger death on the Tube? A long, long time ago.

That would be the Moorgate disaster, back in 1975, which killed 43 (including the driver).

Two drivers were killed in separate SPAD incidents in 1984.

 

[Dieseldriver]

More than one death per week on the average on the London Underground train system. Far and away the most dangerous railways in the UK.

So when was the last UK fatality involving a goods/freight train, loco or wagon?

Fatalities due to suicide are not included in these particular statistics... for obvious reasons.

 

[rebmcr]

That would be the Moorgate disaster, back in 1975, which killed 43 (including the driver).

That was also thought to be a suicide (albeit a different sort).

 

[transmanche]

That was also thought to be a suicide (albeit a different sort).

Well it's one possible conclusion that some people have come to, but it's not supported by any official enquiry.

 

[Monty]

Very strange that a Spanish top link driver, 5 minutes late to over speed by so much, he obviously made that one in a million error and forgot where he was. Why did EMRTS not warn or apply action, as DD mentioned in earlier post.

It was mentioned in the dedicated thread about the accident that EMRTS was not installed on that section of line (though it is/was planned once the line had been converted from Iberian to Standard Guage. Also nothing like TPWS was there to stop the train in the event of it over speeding. The current signalling system on that line would only stop a train in the event of a SPAD.

 

[edwin_m]

There was never any proper explanation for Moorgate. The most likely cause was probably a rare medical condition that might have caused the driver to "freeze" while still holding down the DSD.

Subsequently all dead end tunnels were fitted with trainstop equipment which would stop the train before the end if approaching too fast. It would now be well nigh impossible to drive a train into the dead end at a speed high enough to cause much damage.

 

[The Ham]

The problem was (for whatever reason) that the train was traveling too fast for the bend. Given how dramaticly it came off the line at 118mph, a standard EMU travelling at 100mph (possibly even at 90mph) would have likely come off the track too, so nothing to with being a high speed train.

Therefore, as long as the lines are designed so that there are no low speed bends, there should be very limited problems with high speed rail.

It is one reason that, if a new line is to be built, it makes sence to keep it as straight as possible.

 

[transmanche]

The problem was (for whatever reason) that the train was traveling too fast for the bend. Given how dramaticly it came off the line at 118mph, a standard EMU travelling at 100mph (possibly even at 90mph) would have likely come off the track too, so nothing to with being a high speed train.

Of the the three derailments at Morpeth in the past 50 years, two trains were travelling at 80mph - and the third a little faster. The HSE calculated that vehicles would overturn at 75mph.

Although I have a feeling that the Morpeth curves might be a bit more severe than the one at the accident in Spain.