Cl.442 replacement?

[tbtc]

I cannot see any reason why the 442s couldn't work Charing Cross to Hastings diagrams, if the 375s were converted for AC and sent up north or something.
Commuters would likely complain about having newer units replaced with older stock, but the capacity of an average 442 unit is better suited for busy commuter routes like the Hastings line.

Could a 442 comfortably adhere to these timings?

I wouldn't say no to 442s at Hastings though. :P

The benefit of the 375s is that they are "more standard" than the 442s - presumably a 375 could be made compatible with something like a GA 379? And then GA send a 321 to where similar units work (i.e. Neville Hill)?

And presumably a 375 could be converted to AC relatively easily/cheaply (in the grand scheme of things)?

 

[Class377/5]

SE is currently looking for more rolling stock so it 'might' want some 442's if cheap enough. After all Modern Railways hinted at then possibly looking at 319's for fleet expansion.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The benefit of the 375s is that they are "more standard" than the 442s - presumably a 375 could be made compatible with something like a GA 379? And then GA send a 321 to where similar units work (i.e. Neville Hill)?

And presumably a 375 could be converted to AC relatively easily/cheaply (in the grand scheme of things)?

That's true. I don't see any reason why a 375 couldn't be converted to be compatible with a 379. I'd say the conversion to AC wouldn't be too difficult. The pantograph wells are there, as on all Electrostar units, I suppose it's just fitting the actual AC equipment which would be the costly process. Presumably ROSCOs save more with bulk orders for jobs...

Freeing up more EMUs for the north could only be a good thing.

SE is currently looking for more rolling stock so it 'might' want some 442's if cheap enough. After all Modern Railways hinted at then possibly looking at 319's for fleet expansion.

319s? Crikey, after First Capital Connect's neglect of them, you'd be better off salvaging stock from the Electric Railway Museum!

 

[yorksrob]

The benefit of the 375s is that they are "more standard" than the 442s - presumably a 375 could be made compatible with something like a GA 379? And then GA send a 321 to where similar units work (i.e. Neville Hill)?

And presumably a 375 could be converted to AC relatively easily/cheaply (in the grand scheme of things)?

I know on our wishlist everything would be compatible, but in a world of limited resources where there are plenty of other things money could be spent on, is compatability really a good enough reason to replace perfectly fit for purpose, non life expired express stock.

 

[Class377/5]

319s? Crikey, after First Capital Connect's neglect of them, you'd be better off salvaging stock from the Electric Railway Museum!

Not FCC neglect of them but delays in getting the 377/5 and 700's means they have been over worked.

However once freeded they can be refurnished to modern standards.

 

[D365]

If use of the 442s can be guaranteed for 10-20 years, perhaps Angel Trains might consider a traction package replacement as is the latest style.

 

[BananaRepublic]

If use of the 442s can be guaranteed for 10-20 years, perhaps Angel Trains might consider a traction package replacement as is the latest style.

The problem is that with 30 years on the clock already (at the end of this decade), the case for such a life extension becomes quite marginal. 10 years might not be cost effective and 20 years will see these units to 50 years old and the risk of other bits of the train wearing out or corroding away.

A return to the SWML would be most welcome, as there are far too few 444's left after the 442's were originally withdrawn, to cover all the diagrams that require this class of train.

 

[tbtc]

I know on our wishlist everything would be compatible, but in a world of limited resources where there are plenty of other things money could be spent on, is compatability really a good enough reason to replace perfectly fit for purpose, non life expired express stock.

The 442s are a relatively small (24 unit) fleet that aren't desperately well suited to the route that they currently work on (Gatwick Express).

Whilst Southern are getting lots of tranches of new trains, South Eastern are apparently needing extra capacity (with nothing on the horizon). 442s seem more suited to services like London - Hastings than the Gatwick route IMHO.

Hence me suggesting that if Southern have a seemingly endless supply of 377 derived stock, sending the 442s to South Eastern may suit both companies.

Am not talking of withdrawing anything (but if the arrival of 442s at South Eastern freed up some 375s then there are a few TOCs that could benefit from these potentially dual voltage EMUs).

 

[D365]

The problem is that with 30 years on the clock already (at the end of this decade), the case for such a life extension becomes quite marginal. 10 years might not be cost effective and 20 years will see these units to 50 years old and the risk of other bits of the train wearing out or corroding away.

A return to the SWML would be most welcome, as there are far too few 444's left after the 442's were originally withdrawn, to cover all the diagrams that require this class of train.

Fair point and similar in a way to the situation with any HSTs remaining after IEP, having had the engine replacement, but in this instance a very similar traction replacement is taking place on the SWT 455 fleet.

In some ways it is a shame that the 444 design is no longer available as it would be useful for bolstering the SWT fleet (allowing 450s to work on duties they were built for), as well as potentially on other routes as a 'mini-IEP' of sorts. 442s wouldn't really have survived anyway with the impending Basingstoke-Bournemouth AC conversion.

(Although, I don't like the idea of a 344 on London-Norwich as this would cause further, needless fragmentation of the GA EMU fleet, in my eyes at least. Would an 110mph-capable 379 be suitable?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...Am not talking of withdrawing anything (but if the arrival of 442s at South Eastern freed up some 375s then there are a few TOCs that could benefit from these potentially dual voltage EMUs).

How convenient then, that there are no less than 30 units of Class 375/6, already DV-capable, which have been shuttling around AC equipment for the last decade..!

 

[tbtc]

How convenient then, that there are no less than 30 units of Class 375/6, already DV-capable, which have been shuttling around AC equipment for the last decade..!

30x 375/6s you say?

30x 4 coaches = 120 carriages?

24x 5 coaches = 120 carriages?

Hmm...

 

[JamesRowden]

How convenient then, that there are no less than 30 units of Class 375/6, already DV-capable, which have been shuttling around AC equipment for the last decade..!

A Network Rail presentation that someone posted on this forum showed that the East Kent lines and the line from Tunbridge Wells to Hastings (plus Marshlink) are being considered for conversion to AC.

 

[TrainBoy98]

30x 375/6s you say?

30x 4 coaches = 120 carriages?

24x 5 coaches = 120 carriages?

Hmm...

30 x four cars, never seen any of them on AC though, but they all have it fitted and ready to roll. Could be quite nice with a refresh to the interior and a new splash of paint.

 

[cjmillsnun]

In some ways it is a shame that the 444 design is no longer available as it would be useful for bolstering the SWT fleet (allowing 450s to work on duties they were built for), as well as potentially on other routes as a 'mini-IEP' of sorts. 442s wouldn't really have survived anyway with the impending Basingstoke-Bournemouth AC conversion.

Whilst I agree it's sad that the 444 is no longer available, if (and we're going hypothetical here) the 442s returned to SWT then after the electric spine started, they would put them on the Pompey Direct.

 

[Class377/5]

30 x four cars, never seen any of them on AC though, but they all have it fitted and ready to roll. Could be quite nice with a refresh to the interior and a new splash of paint.

Only time the went AC on record is at Derby.

30 x four cars, never seen any of them on AC though, but they all have it fitted and ready to roll. Could be quite nice with a refresh to the interior and a new splash of paint.

30x 375/6s you say?

30x 4 coaches = 120 carriages?

24x 5 coaches = 120 carriages?

Hmm...

One major difference. 442 is 23m stock where as 375 is 20m.

 

[JamesRowden]

The 442s are a relatively small (24 unit) fleet that aren't desperately well suited to the route that they currently work on (Gatwick Express).

Whilst Southern are getting lots of tranches of new trains, South Eastern are apparently needing extra capacity (with nothing on the horizon). 442s seem more suited to services like London - Hastings than the Gatwick route IMHO.

Hence me suggesting that if Southern have a seemingly endless supply of 377 derived stock, sending the 442s to South Eastern may suit both companies.

Am not talking of withdrawing anything (but if the arrival of 442s at South Eastern freed up some 375s then there are a few TOCs that could benefit from these potentially dual voltage EMUs).

In the RUS, Network Rail stated that all peak services on the Tonbridge Mainline should be 12-car by 2020. A 12-car 375/6 has 708 seats. A 10-car 442 has 692 seats. These seem fairly similar. The Charing Cross to Hastings service pattern (if 442s were used instead of 375s) would involve 16 class 442 sets in service during the peak, meaning that not all 24 sets would be required (even when accounting for spares).

Also, selective door opening (SDO) would be required at Tunbridge Wells station due to the short platforms (10 20m cars) and there being tunnels at either end making it very expensive and disruptive to extend the platform. I do not know whether 442s have SDO. There is also potentialy the problem at Charing Cross with platforms 5-6 not being long enough for 12 20m car trains that do not have SDO. This means that either the 465s on the Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells peak services will either need to be fitted with SDO or displaced for units that do (such as electrostars).

 

[yorksrob]

The 442s are a relatively small (24 unit) fleet that aren't desperately well suited to the route that they currently work on (Gatwick Express).

Whilst Southern are getting lots of tranches of new trains, South Eastern are apparently needing extra capacity (with nothing on the horizon). 442s seem more suited to services like London - Hastings than the Gatwick route IMHO.

Hence me suggesting that if Southern have a seemingly endless supply of 377 derived stock, sending the 442s to South Eastern may suit both companies.

Am not talking of withdrawing anything (but if the arrival of 442s at South Eastern freed up some 375s then there are a few TOCs that could benefit from these potentially dual voltage EMUs).

That seems a reasonable suggestion. Particularly as SE already have quite a large selection of classes.

Incidentally, I've just seen that plans may be afoot for another runway at Gatwick, so doubtless this will result in another readjustment of priorities on the route:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23410288

 

[antharro]

Part of the route (Basingstoke to Bournemouth and beyond) will be converted from DC to AC. A 442 won't be able to handle that :/[

While I understand the reasons for this conversion, my personal opinion is very much against it, entirely for aesthetic reasons - I find overhead line with their gantries to be an eyesore. But, there are good reasons for it and I guess it's one of those things that will just happen.

However, if it's Basingstoke to Bournemouth, then presumably Basingstoke - Waterloo will still be third rail. So either they leave third rail down to Bournemouth (at least, if not to Weymouth), or overhead lines go up to Waterloo. If the third rail stays, then there's no reason the 442s couldn't return to the SWML.

If use of the 442s can be guaranteed for 10-20 years, perhaps Angel Trains might consider a traction package replacement as is the latest style.

The problem is that with 30 years on the clock already (at the end of this decade), the case for such a life extension becomes quite marginal. 10 years might not be cost effective and 20 years will see these units to 50 years old and the risk of other bits of the train wearing out or corroding away.

442s are based on a Mark 3 bodyshell. Mark three HST carriages were examined in 2011 and were found to be good to 2035. It surely can't be out of the question that the 442s might hopefully last for a similar time? Unless there is something seriously structurally wrong with them that hasn't been picked up yet; but then I'd hope something like that would've been picked up during routine maintance and checks.

As for a new traction package... the 442's acceleration isn't great. But then they weren't designed for slow stopping services. A new traction package could certainly help make them more versitile and probably consume less electricity. But then they wouldn't have that fantastic scream at high speed!

I like 442s, very comfortable ride.
If you're looking for a service they'd be suitable for then Waterloo-Weymouth springs to mind.
Hold on a min.....

A return to the SWML would be most welcome, as there are far too few 444's left after the 442's were originally withdrawn, to cover all the diagrams that require this class of train.

I wish. Then the Portsmouth line could have a greater share of the 444s and not have to suffer 450s so much!

I've travelled on them a couple of times since they were moved to Southern/GatEx. While it's not a bad refurb, I don't see it was necessary to completely replace all the seats. Certainly remove some to allow for luggate racks, and perhaps open first class to be open plan instead of the compartments, but I don't think the existing seats were in *that* bad condition. New covers would've done fine. (IMO!) Personally, I don't find the new seats anywhere near as comfortable as the old seats they had previously in their NSE/SWT days. I also dislike First class not being in the London-end leading carriage - having it in the middle means more people walking though so it's not as quiet as it would be if it were where it used to be. Plus, compartments!

 

[swt_passenger]

However, if it's Basingstoke to Bournemouth, then presumably Basingstoke - Waterloo will still be third rail. So either they leave third rail down to Bournemouth (at least, if not to Weymouth)...

They'll remove the third rail between Basingstoke and Southampton. They cannot have both systems operating together over such a significant distance, only where needed for changeover. Dual voltage stock will be needed - most likely by fitting the necessary kit to the existing Desiros, which already allow for it.

We have discussed the reasons in depth in a number of earlier threads.

 

[alanf]

Am i right in thinking the 442s used traction motors from older mk1 stock emus and if so have they been modified since?

 

[yorksrob]

Am i right in thinking the 442s used traction motors from older mk1 stock emus and if so have they been modified since?

Yes, some of them have REP motors. Not sure if they've been modified since.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yes, some of them have REP motors. Not sure if they've been modified since.

All of them have REP motors

 

[BestWestern]

442s are based on a Mark 3 bodyshell. Mark three HST carriages were examined in 2011 and were found to be good to 2035. It surely can't be out of the question that the 442s might hopefully last for a similar time? Unless there is something seriously structurally wrong with them that hasn't been picked up yet; but then I'd hope something like that would've been picked up during routine maintance and checks.

Considering that the 442s are also a fair bit newer than the HST trailers, I'd imagine they could easily last well beyond that deadline if required. Bearing in mind the massive shortage of trains in the UK it would be criminal not to find a good use for such high quality stock, even if it ends up being hauled by something.

 

[Goatboy]

The trouble with the 442's is that they are only really suited to one line - the one they were built for, Waterloo to Weymouth. They didn't need replacement, only they were. Now we are stuck with the fact they are put on routes they are not suitable for and it seems inconceivable they will ever work again on the route they were specifically designed for.

I suspect they'll die an early death, which will be a shame. They were a victim of 'shiney new train' syndrome. A shame that the money spent on the 444's couldn't be spent either supplementing the 442's or buying new stock for a line that didn't already have high quality IC style long distance EMU's operating on it.

The 442 is a long distance EMU. This is why it's a nuisance on the Gatex services, which did not require such a train.

 

[BestWestern]

The trouble with the 442's is that they are only really suited to one line - the one they were built for, Waterloo to Weymouth. They didn't need replacement, only they were. Now we are stuck with the fact they are put on routes they are not suitable for and it seems inconceivable they will ever work again on the route they were specifically designed for.

I suspect they'll die an early death, which will be a shame. They were a victim of 'shiney new train' syndrome. A shame that the money spent on the 444's couldn't be spent either supplementing the 442's or buying new stock for a line that didn't already have high quality IC style long distance EMU's operating on it.

The 442 is a long distance EMU. This is why it's a nuisance on the Gatex services, which did not require such a train.

Indeed, as an EMU they are slightly hamstrung in terms of a shortage of obvious suitable routes. But I do wonder if they just might end up as hauled stock, even if it were a 'stopgap' somewhere. There is no shortage of spare AC locos scattered about the place, and with vast swathes of the land expecting wires sometime soon, surely it's not inconceivable that somebody might be enterprising enough to hook some 442s up and run them somewhere? Already fitted with buffers, cabs, power doors and all the mod cons; based on a solid vehicle design; kept up to scratch maintenance-wise and recently refurbed; lots of scope to split and reform them into whatever formation you wanted and plenty of them to play with; and presumably pretty cheap to lease if they were to end up going spare - surely it'd be a no-brainer?! Stick a 91 on one end and away you go!

 

[Manchester77]

Often a 444 type AC EMU is talked about for the GEML but if its true that 442s can be hauled by a loco could this be an idea to idk top and tail for flexibility a 442?

 

[BestWestern]

Often a 444 type AC EMU is talked about for the GEML but if its true that 442s can be hauled by a loco could this be an idea to idk top and tail for flexibility a 442?

They would almost certainly require some fairly heavy duty wiring modifications in order to be able to drive from the unit cabs, but considering the various substantial work being carried out on ancient stock over the coming years (major rebuild of rusting 150s for example) it should present no problems. Remove the traction gear (either re-bogie or remove completely the centre driving cars), reform them into whatever length is required, and you have a perfectly serviceable long distance train. The right flavour Class 90 will do 110mph I think, that ought to be enough for most express work.

 

[Minstral25]

How about building a pantograph transformer coach for them so that they can be used on AC as 10 coach trains? Probably not a great idea but if it gets them somewhere they can be used properly.

 

[BestWestern]

How about building a pantograph transformer coach for them so that they can be used on AC as 10 coach trains? Probably not a great idea but if it gets them somewhere they can be used properly.

I would think that is probably beyond what would be considered reasonable expenditure. You never know though, I'd have said the same about fitting plug doors to MK3s!

 

[Manchester77]

All of them have REP motors

Based on the southern regions reuse of bogies and motors could any bits of the REP motors come from ex southern railway stock? Iirc someone said that some trains do I can't rem,ear which though?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Based on the southern regions reuse of bogies and motors could any bits of the REP motors come from ex southern railway stock? Iirc someone said that some trains do I can't rem,ear which though?

That'll be the earlier 455s; motors recovered from 4-SUBs if I rember right. some of them, I have been told, also have jumper cables recovered from class 76 locomotives...!!