The Route Masters: Running London's Roads (BBC2)

[telstarbox]

Building a new coach station is more of a risk than building a new railway station or line. If a station is upgraded or replaced it's a fairly safe bet that the passengers and thus the trains will be around for the next 30-40 years. Franchise specifications also 'guarantee' a long-term requirement for railway infrastructure. There isn't this certainty with coach services - if they declined in popularity and fewer services were required, the new coach station would become a white elephant.

 

[IanD]

I suggested a Stratford coach station in another thread some time back

One good point in Stratford's favour is that it has excellent onward transport connections.

But rubbish road connections if you are arriving from anywhere other than the area served by the M11 round to the Thames, and even those can get horribly congetsed.

 

[notadriver]

Surely the cost of building a coach station is far less than a train station and less complex. Just a terminal building, some bays marked out. Easy. No need for any signals etc. If it fails sell off the site to a developer to build houses on.

 

[telstarbox]

Fair point.

 

[transmanche]

But rubbish road connections if you are arriving from anywhere other than the area served by the M11 round to the Thames, and even those can get horribly congested.

Well Stratford has easy access to the A12, A13, A406 and M11 (and then to the M25).

And let's be honest, Victoria Coach Station doesn't exactly have great road connections - how many passengers make their onward connection by private car?


For reference, there was also a thread in May discussing this: London coach terminii - poor location?

 

[jon0844]

I can't see coaches ever becoming less popular. We have modern coaches with more creature comforts and I'm sure we could see more luxury coaches with more legroom, tables etc.

And then we have the sleeper coaches.

The big advantage for coach travel will always be that you can pretty much set up a route overnight, not wait to build new stations and infrastructure as you would with rail.

So I am fairly confident that we won't see coaches disappear and, like buses in rural areas, there's a lot of potential to convince some people that it's an okay way to travel at times.

 

[IanD]

Well Stratford has easy access to the A12, A13, A406 and M11 (and then to the M25).

Which are all basically in the area that I said it has good access from.

If you're heading from Yorkshire/the North West, you'd have to travel almost a quarter way round the M25 or A406 (bot usually v busy) to get to Stratford; from the West you'd have to travel at least halfway round; and from the south you'd have to use one of the river crossings. It would probably add at least an hour to all these journeys.

(It was the road connections for the coachess that I was referring to.)

 

[Statto]

If you look at the rebuilds done for Manchester and Birmingham coach stations, they had to find spare land away from the site. Birmingham wasn't too far from the original site but Manchester's one was quite some distance away in a back street part of town.

VCS had a refurbishment around 20 years ago, before that it was absolute chaos trying to find your coach as they were all parked behind each other. I can't remember what the arrangements were at the time, though - can anyone remember where coaches were relocated to?

I had a look at the Sindbad website for fares to Warsaw and the fares don't look terribly cheap. The lowest fare I can find is 683 PLN return which is £138 booking well in advance. OK, that's not that bad given the distance but I was expecting fares much cheaper than Ryanair. Ryanair is more expensive booking at short notice but can of course be much cheaper than £138 return if you don't have much luggage and can organise your trip when the fare is cheap.

Manchester Coach Station has been rebuilt on the old Chorlton Street Coach Station site, which is a 5 minute walk from Piccadilly Gardens not as you put it on some back street, maybe you're referring to Lever Street Bus Station which was the temporary Coach Station whilst Chorlton Street was being rebuilt, which was on a back street but 5 minute walk from Piccadilly Gardens in the opposite direction.

Don't think anyone predicted the growth of Coach travel over the last 15 years, Victoria was adequate 15 years ago but is too small now. Stratford may have good Transport links but too inconvenient for those coming from the M1/M3/M4/M40 ecc which might add an extra hour onto the journey time.

 

[radamfi]

Manchester Coach Station has been rebuilt on the old Chorlton Street Coach Station site, which is a 5 minute walk from Piccadilly Gardens not as you put it on some back street, maybe you're referring to Lever Street Bus Station which was the temporary Coach Station whilst Chorlton Street was being rebuilt, which was on a back street but 5 minute walk from Piccadilly Gardens in the opposite direction.

I was referring to Lever Street as the 'back street'. I would say it is about 10 minutes walk from Chorlton Street to Lever Street. Both Manchester and Birmingham coach stations were rebuilt on the same site, maybe my post was a bit ambiguous.

If coach travel does expand further with more coaches going to London, coaches could use other stops around Buckingham Palace Road/Bulleid Way, and maybe in other parts of London, but Victoria could continue to be used at capacity for those operators willing to pay a premium for it. It is not absolutely essential for coaches to use a coach station. Megabus use regular bus stops in many places to avoid departure charges at bus stations they don't own.

 

[transmanche]

If you're heading from Yorkshire/the North West, you'd have to travel almost a quarter way round the M25 or A406 (bot usually v busy) to get to Stratford

Or you might come down the A1/A14/M11.

from the West you'd have to travel at least halfway round; and from the south you'd have to use one of the river crossings. It would probably add at least an hour to all these journeys.

Route A6 from Stansted goes all around the A406 to Golders Green, before heading into Victoria - so some would gain and some will lose.

But I didn't suggest closing Victoria, I suggested Stratford as an alternative new coach station. So it could be a place for the 'budget operators' to use, with what are bound to be lower departure fees (currently £53-£62 for peak time departures from VCS, depending on coach length).

 

[Darren R]

The debate about demolishing Victoria Coach Station is somewhat moot though - it's a listed building. It's only Grade II (I think) and of course Grade II listed buildings are being demolished all the time, but I think in this instance there would be too much of a fight put up against such a proposal.

 

[jon0844]

Couldn't the station suffer a catastrophic fire like many other listed buildings seem to?!

 

[notadriver]

I can't see coaches ever becoming less popular. We have modern coaches with more creature comforts and I'm sure we could see more luxury coaches with more legroom, tables etc.

And then we have the sleeper coaches.

The big advantage for coach travel will always be that you can pretty much set up a route overnight, not wait to build new stations and infrastructure as you would with rail.

So I am fairly confident that we won't see coaches disappear and, like buses in rural areas, there's a lot of potential to convince some people that it's an okay way to travel at times.

I've not been to Paris for some time but I recall simply being dumped at a bus stop on the road not far from Gare du Nord station. There was no 'glamorous' arrivals terminal like there is at Victoria coach station. Actually the same thing applies to Eurostar. At St Pancras a large part of the station is dedicated to Eurostar but in Paris you seem to get off just like any other train and exit.

 

[jon0844]

That's the case throughout Europe when going from country to country. Not necessarily very glamorous, but that's the advantage of being in both the EU and the Schengen Area.

Of course, that doesn't mean they couldn't have a nicer place to stop coaches in Paris - but that's up to them. TfL does seem to care quite a bit about its image, spending money where many other businesses wouldn't bother. You could argue that it's a waste of money, but that's another story.

 

[radamfi]

I've not been to Paris for some time but I recall simply being dumped at a bus stop on the road not far from Gare du Nord station. There was no 'glamorous' arrivals terminal like there is at Victoria coach station.

There are very few domestic coaches in most western European countries, given that coach companies were not allowed compete with the railways. Only very recently has that started to change, for example with coach deregulation in Germany. So there has been no need for a coach station for scheduled coaches in most of western Europe. Sometimes there will be a small Eurolines coach station at main Eurolines connections points, such as at Amstel in Amsterdam. There are also sometimes coach parks for non-scheduled tourist coaches, like what Megabus use in Paris and Amsterdam.

 

[notadriver]

Thanks for your reply radamfi it makes interesting reading. Regarding coaches competing with railways - surely they compete for different markets in these days. I remember in the 80s with National Express Rapide offering hostess service and coaches able to use the outside lane of motorways and cruise at more than 70 mph in traffic conditions a lot lighter than today against trains which at the time were only just starting to go faster than 100 mph. Maybe that was the closest coaches got to trains in terms of price, comfort and journey time?

 

[radamfi]

In some European countries, there is not so much scope for competing with the trains. In Belgium or the Netherlands, most people won't be paying much more than £10 each way for their train tickets so there isn't really a demand for anything cheaper. Coaches have more of a potential in the bigger countries like France, Germany and Spain.

Spain is an exception as they do have a big coach network. SNCF have started their own coach service in France called iDBus, presumably to get ahead of any future competition once the market is liberalised. National Express have started a new coach network in Germany called city2city linking the main cities and more competition is expected. Budget travellers in Germany do have the option of avoiding the main IC/ICE trains and using regional trains instead so coaches have to compete with that.

 

[Manchester77]

Lol think we all forgot about this weeks episode! It's on the iPlayer (or at least on the app )

 

[GodAtum]

Another fascinating episode! I really fell sorry for the people who couldn't get on the bus! Not being able to get on the bus daily is disgusting, have TFL done anything about it? I have to admit I'm a militant bus passenger.

I wonder what the lady's plans are? What would you rather do, sit on a bus in traffic for 1 hour or sit in a car?

Are buses the safest form of road transport compared to the car and cycling?

 

[Drsatan]

Another fascinating episode! I really fell sorry for the people who couldn't get on the bus! Not being able to get on the bus daily is disgusting, have TFL done anything about it? I have to admit I'm a militant bus passenger.

I wonder what the lady's plans are? What would you rather do, sit on a bus in traffic for 1 hour or sit in a car?

I've noticed that some people (including the lady stuck in traffic) don't want to use public transport under any circumstances: a good example being my next door neighbour who drives 20 miles each way to work, despite the existence of a parallel train service.

Unfortunately, you can't change people's minds easily

 

[radamfi]

Another fascinating episode! I really fell sorry for the people who couldn't get on the bus! Not being able to get on the bus daily is disgusting, have TFL done anything about it? I have to admit I'm a militant bus passenger.

I wonder what the lady's plans are? What would you rather do, sit on a bus in traffic for 1 hour or sit in a car?

Are buses the safest form of road transport compared to the car and cycling?

I've been reading about 343 overcrowding on forums for some time. It runs every 6 minutes so it is pretty frequent at the moment. Clearly a further increase in frequency is needed but TfL is actually trying to reduce bus subsidy (required because of funding cuts from central government) so service enhancements are really at a premium.

The programme kept implying that there are a lot of cyclists in London when in reality there are a tiny, tiny number compared to proper cycling countries. Also, the programme highlighted the severe flaws with the existing 'cycle superhighways', saying that there are still conflicts between motorists and cyclists. If they were proper 'superhighways' then motor vehicles and cycles would not be in such proximity, and there wouldn't be any conflict.

 

[overthewater]

I've been reading about 343 overcrowding on forums for some time. It runs every 6 minutes so it is pretty frequent at the moment. Clearly a further increase in frequency is needed but TfL is actually trying to reduce bus subsidy (required because of funding cuts from central government) so service enhancements are really at a premium.

The programme kept implying that there are a lot of cyclists in London when in reality there are a tiny, tiny number compared to proper cycling countries. Also, the programme highlighted the severe flaws with the existing 'cycle superhighways', saying that there are still conflicts between motorists and cyclists. If they were proper 'superhighways' then motor vehicles and cycles would not be in such proximity, and there wouldn't be any conflict.

This may sound wrong but maybe ask the company to operate the increased journeys commercially and allow said company to keep all profits? I bet there could fin a few extra buses to make money?

 

[transmanche]

This may sound wrong but maybe ask the company to operate the increased journeys commercially and allow said company to keep all profits? I bet there could fin a few extra buses to make money?

I think some of the route contracts used to work that way; a lower fixed fee, with the companies keeping the farebox. But with so few people paying cash these days, there's nothing for them to keep.

 

[Midlandman]

I've noticed that some people (including the lady stuck in traffic) don't want to use public transport under any circumstances: a good example being my next door neighbour who drives 20 miles each way to work, despite the existence of a parallel train service.

Unfortunately, you can't change people's minds easily

Several years ago, I worked with someone who would have gone upstairs to bed in his car if he could. (He was also a rail-into-road conversion fanatic who really did seem to think that all you needed to do was tarmac them over). Many years ago, when I did Economics at school, every theory, such as Price Elasticity of Demand, which tried to show how pricing could affect peoples' behaviour, was prefaced with a cautionary 'other things being equal'. In my opinion, the private car is the single largest factor in ensuring that other things are NOT equal. You will always have people who will need to be prised out of their cars.

As for the 343, if it runs 10 times an hour, why not turn some services back at the affected stop so that the people there have an empty bus to go st two or three times an hour? This was regularly done in Manchester where an 'x' was added to the route number (192x, etc.)

 

[radamfi]

As for the 343, if it runs 10 times an hour, why not turn some services back at the affected stop so that the people there have an empty bus to go st two or three times an hour? This was regularly done in Manchester where an 'x' was added to the route number (192x, etc.)

TfL have been reluctant to use short workings in recent years, although the 25 recently now has half the daytime journeys terminating at Holborn Circus so there may be a change of heart on this principle now. But even extra short workings would cost extra money. Literally turning the bus around here and not providing extra resources would mean a reduction in frequency for the rest of the route.

 

[transmanche]

TfL have been reluctant to use short workings in recent years, although the 25 recently now has half the daytime journeys terminating at Holborn Circus so there may be a change of heart on this principle now. But even extra short workings would cost extra money. Literally turning the bus around here and not providing extra resources would mean a reduction in frequency for the rest of the route.

Yes, TfL seem to have been on a mission to remove overlapping sections (which many routes used to have) and short journeys. In fact I thought the last route to operate in sections was the 29[*], up until it was shortened on the introduction of bendybuses.

* Trafalgar Sq-Wood Green and Camden Town-Palmers Green

 

[Midlandman]

TfL have been reluctant to use short workings in recent years, although the 25 recently now has half the daytime journeys terminating at Holborn Circus so there may be a change of heart on this principle now. But even extra short workings would cost extra money. Literally turning the bus around here and not providing extra resources would mean a reduction in frequency for the rest of the route.

As I understood from the programme, not every bus coming to this stop (I don't know where it is) is full. During the film clip, the main problem seemed to be people diving in the exit doors which were being opened to let people off. This seemed to indicate that the extremities of the route could maybe stand losing 2 (or, at a pinch, 3 but no more) services per hour. I always believe that if you operate a service which, at some point on it's route, is virtually inaccessible, you have to do something, quickly. (Even if it's only spreading the misery around more evenly!)

I must say, on a more general note that even though I don't live in London (and don't watch that much television) this series has been a 'must watch' for me.

 

[transmanche]

As I understood from the programme, not every bus coming to this stop (I don't know where it is) is full. During the film clip, the main problem seemed to be people diving in the exit doors which were being opened to let people off.

Yes, although they didn't show that on film.

One thing TfL could do is occasionally send one of their staff members to act as a marshal at that stop (in a similar way to how they showed someone at Victoria bus station). Or prioritise the 343 for conversion to the Borisbus - so everyone can board using the centre/rear doors!

 

[Midlandman]

I must admit, my next suggestion was going to be some supervisory presence. Where does the 343 go, by the way?

 

[transmanche]

Where does the 343 go, by the way?

New Cross Gate to City Hall via Brockley, Peckham and Elephant & Castle.