Highland Chieftain - when it is late, it's very late - why?

[crispy1978]

Travelling on the Chieftain to Inverness in 9 weeks - and whilst it is often late at certain places along the line, there seem to be generous buffers built in at several stations to allow it to make up time - so it might be up to 20 minutes late somewhere, but generally arrives on time at Inverness.

However - I have noticed, when it is late, it is very late - for example:

17/07/13 - 122 late
01/07/13 - 127 late
12/06/13 - 106 late
09/05/13 - 78 late
26/04/13 - 132 late
15/04/13 - 111 late (due to someone jumping on track near Berwick - I was on a train from Edinburgh that day!)
05/04/13 - 46 late
29/03/13 - 53 late

And half a dozen of 0 late in the same timescale. This doesn't include weekends, but a similar pattern seems to be in place. It will at the moment be another 0 today.

Is there something which means this train is lower in priority so it often gets shunted down the queue? I've not examined the reasons for the delays - apart from they do seem to be more fairly regular.

 

[PHILIPE]

It has a long way to travel and just a minor delay could start the rot. If trains are running late, priority is given to trains running on time so a few minutes could escalate over such a long journey. XC used to have a porblem with their Aberdeen to Penzance. whereas it could arrive Penzance several hours late if you apply this criteria. Spacial arrangements were put in place to signal it to have the priority at junctions etc.,if running late.

 

[crispy1978]

It has a long way to travel and just a minor delay could start the rot. If trains are running late, priority is given to trains running on time so a few minutes could escalate over such a long journey. XC used to have a porblem with their Aberdeen to Penzance. whereas it could arrive Penzance several hours late if you apply this criteria. Spacial arrangements were put in place to signal it to have the priority at junctions etc.,if running late.

Yeah - I appreciate that. It seems that once it gets a certain period of time late, it goes really late. Today looks to be a typical example - seems to be stuck somewhere past Monktonhall Jn and Edinburgh (where it should have been 90 minutes ago!)

Just hope there aren't delays of that magnitude on the 25 September!

 

[Liam]

The Highland Main Line is mostly single track, so if it's late it loses its slot and has to wait for passing Southbound trains at various points.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Highland Main Line is mostly single track, so if it's late it loses its slot and has to wait for passing Southbound trains at various points.

Exactly .....

 

[yorkie]

Today it has (at the time of writing - Stirling 118 mins late) recovered 5 minutes of delay since Edinburgh (123 mins late), and is expected to make up more time by Pitlochry. But what the departure boards don't realise, is that it will clash with the 1846 Inverness - Edinburgh, so will have to wait at Pitlochry.

There's also the 2015 Inverness - Glasgow and 2044 Inverness - Euston to get past. I expect it'll be passing the Glasgow train at Kingussie, and the Sleeper at Aviemore.

So the predictions of making up more time by Aviemore are unlikely to actually happen in reality. But it could be worse, I don't think it will have to wait too long at any of those points.

There are certain delay times that are less likely than others, as if it doesn't pass a certain point by a certain time, it'll be passing a train at a different point. But if the Southbound trains are also late, anything can happen.

 

[hs2critic]

I took this service from Haymarket to Inverness last summer and the delay started at around 30 and ended up about 60.

This was a problem with the train itself - a bit of a disappointment when I'd chosen that train because it is the only HST each day. After about 30 mins, the header unit came through, but kept on going, not sure where to, I thought base was Craigentinny, but might have needed to get it out the way? Clearly it had some power, but not enough to drag a rake of coaches.

Then the full train come through, I assume with a spare front unit from Craigentinny?

As far as usage goes, each set only gets to make one journey each day in one direction, and it is mostly leisure traffic, so I assume this route stays to keep the tourist boards happy.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is it? Reading on here it sounds quite popular with businessmen and often First Class is full before Edinburgh southbound IIRC.

 

[tbtc]

As far as usage goes, each set only gets to make one journey each day in one direction

IIRC the northbound Chieftain doesn't leave London until 12:00 so works a morning service into London from somewhere around Neville Hill (Harrogate? Hull?).

The southbound Chieftain arrives in London at 15:51 and does a similar peak service back to somewhere around Neville Hill.

Am sure someone can correct me on the other workings - it certainly allows EC to get a morning service from "Yorkshire" into London and a teatime service back to "Yorkshire" with minimal use of resources.

In comparison, EMT have HSTs that arrive in London in the morning and sit around (a Cricklewood) until teatime.

There are things to criticise the Chieftain for (how much difference does one direct train a day really make? Is it tokenism? It currently means a lot of diesel running under the wires) but it does seem reasonable use of stock (since one train couldn't do London - Inverness - London in a day, certainly not at popular times to travel).

 

[Flying Snail]

As far as usage goes, each set only gets to make one journey each day in one direction, and it is mostly leisure traffic, so I assume this route stays to keep the tourist boards happy.

The set that operates the down Chieftain will have come into Kings Cross in service on the 07.30 from Harrogate, the Up Chieftain will form the evening service from Kings Cross to Hull before returning to Neville Hill.

Both Up and Down services are normally very well loaded in both standard and First class.

 

[headshot119]

The set that operates the down Chieftain will have come into Kings Cross in service on the 07.30 from Harrogate, the Up Chieftain will form the evening service from Kings Cross to Hull before returning to Neville Hill.

Both Up and Down services are normally very well loaded in both standard and First class.

I can certainly vouch for the loadings, I've used it a five or six times over the last year and every time it's been well loaded.

 

[yorkie]

Delays to preceding Northbound trains, resulted in delays to some southbound trains. The Chieftian had to wait for these trains, a total of 20 minutes simply waiting at Kingussie and Aviemore. I think that may answer the original question!

 

[crispy1978]

Delays to preceding Northbound trains, resulted in delays to some southbound trains. The Chieftian had to wait for these trains, a total of 20 minutes simply waiting at Kingussie and Aviemore. I think that may answer the original question!

Yeah - I didn't realise there were areas of single-track. A whopping 136 late today!

 

[route:oxford]

Yeah - I didn't realise there were areas of single-track. A whopping 136 late today!

Massive problems in Edinburgh tonight.

Colleagues missed one train to Stirling due to overcrowding at Haymarket meant that they couldn't change platforms quick enough.

The Alloa train was unannounced/not listed on the PIS (allegedly).

Oh and they grabbed the first service they could heading West, disembarked at Linlithgow only to see the Chieftan go through.

They gave up and paid for a Taxi to Stirling from Linlithgow...

 

[YorkshireRider]

There are things to criticise the Chieftain for (how much difference does one direct train a day really make? Is it tokenism?

To listen to some people you would think the whole economy of Inverness and the highlands would collapse if this train didn't run, but yes in reality it is tokenism, which brings with it extra costs EC could probably do without.

 

[route:oxford]

To listen to some people you would think the whole economy of Inverness and the highlands would collapse if this train didn't run, but yes in reality it is tokenism, which brings with it extra costs EC could probably do without.

At the same time, if it was offered to the operator who takes on the Caledonian Sleeper operations...

Do you think they'd turn it down?

I'm pretty sure they'd manage to secure suitable stock for it one way or another.

 

[tbtc]

To listen to some people you would think the whole economy of Inverness and the highlands would collapse if this train didn't run, but yes in reality it is tokenism, which brings with it extra costs EC could probably do without.

True - the complications like staffing must be a headache for EC

 

[MCR247]

At the same time, if it was offered to the operator who takes on the Caledonian Sleeper operations...

Do you think they'd turn it down?

I'm pretty sure they'd manage to secure suitable stock for it one way or another.

I think they would turn it down because there is no way it would work if it wasn't in the EC franchise

 

[causton]

The only way that would be suitable would be if the Chieftain could work in conjunction with the sleepers, e.g. the sleeper heads north from Euston, arrives into Inverness, forms the Chieftain to Kings Cross*, then over to Wembley depot, then to Euston, then to Inverness etc...
and the other unit goes south from Inverness in the evening to Euston, then across to Kings Cross* in the morning, then north to Inverness again etc.

*it could go back to Euston via the WCML to make things a little easier, but I would personally prefer it to go to Kings Cross!

Of course for this to work they would have to have stock which was capable of working both a sleeper train and a daytime train. Not that likely I'm guessing!

 

[londonboi]

Just been thinking while reading this would it not be more cost effective to have a electric loco pull the kings cross inv/abd service up to edinburgh then connect a diesel to the unit to pull it the rest of the journey north.

And to do the same southbound ie diesel from inv/abd disconect at edi then run electric??

 

[route:oxford]

I think they would turn it down because there is no way it would work if it wasn't in the EC franchise

In what way wouldn't work?

Do you think people would refuse to board a direct service to Inverness from Kings Cross if it wasn't operated by a brand or franchise that they recognise?

 

[matchmaker]

Yeah - I didn't realise there were areas of single-track. A whopping 136 late today!

Really? The only double track sections are Perth - Stanley junction, Blair Atholl - Dalwhinnie, and from south of Culloden to Inveness. A lot of single track (although several single track sections have a 100mph speed limit)!

 

[crispy1978]

Really? The only double track sections are Perth - Stanley junction, Blair Atholl - Dalwhinnie, and from south of Culloden to Inveness. A lot of single track (although several single track sections have a 100mph speed limit)!

Whilst I travel the trains quite a bit, I'm not an expert on infrastructure. I know the bulk of the Far North and Cambrian Coast lines are single track from experience, but wasn't aware of that section, perhaps the fact it's relatively high speed was what made me assume it was dual track!

 

[Eagle]

In what way wouldn't work?

Do you think people would refuse to board a direct service to Inverness from Kings Cross if it wasn't operated by a brand or franchise that they recognise?

Well as has been mentioned upthread, it's currently interworked with London to Yorkshire services (on a two-day diagram Neville Hill > Harrogate > London > Inverness > London > Hull > Neville Hill).

If you were to split it off from EC, you'd need to find one extra HST to run it.

 

[hs2critic]

The set that operates the down Chieftain will have come into Kings Cross in service on the 07.30 from Harrogate, the Up Chieftain will form the evening service from Kings Cross to Hull before returning to Neville Hill.

Thanks for the correction.

So do the crew overnight in Inverness, then run the morning service back down? Either way, that's expensive compared to a low cost airline who will send the plane straight back, and that is the competition here just as much (well actually more so) compared to the FSR services.

Both Up and Down services are normally very well loaded in both standard and First class.

I never questioned the loads, just the yields. I've seen the Chieftan pull in at Newcastle southbound with almost the whole train getting off, then another bunch getting back on again.

There's clearly a market between the Highlands and the Central Belt, and no doubt anyone who has done this route knows how scenic it is, with the neighbouring Kyle route being even more so.

My question is whether or not it really is economic to have an HST - or any other 8-10 coach equivalent running the full length of this route, instead of perhaps having 3 more daily turbostar type units working north of Edinburgh instead. Also worth noting that the FSR services alternate between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and there's always a good volume switching over between them at Perth.

 

[tbtc]

At the same time, if it was offered to the operator who takes on the Caledonian Sleeper operations...

Do you think they'd turn it down?

I'm pretty sure they'd manage to secure suitable stock for it one way or another.

At the moment EC can run the service with a marginal cost of one train (assuming that the morning Harrogate - London service would work the teatime London - Hull service otherwise - seems reasonable given the number of idle HSTs that EMT have during the daytime).

But to run the Cheiftan as a mico service you'd probably need four trains (one to do the southbound, one to do the northbound and a spare at both ends).

You'd need to have a tiny crew of Newcastle staff (IIRC that's where the changeovers are done?), which the Sleeper goes nowhere near, but those staff would only be able to work a limited number of rostas.

The whole thing is so impractical, I'm surprised that the SNP haven't suggested it.

 

[DarloRich]

I took this service from Haymarket to Inverness last summer and the delay started at around 30 and ended up about 60.

This was a problem with the train itself - a bit of a disappointment when I'd chosen that train because it is the only HST each day. After about 30 mins, the header unit came through, but kept on going, not sure where to, I thought base was Craigentinny, but might have needed to get it out the way? Clearly it had some power, but not enough to drag a rake of coaches.

Then the full train come through, I assume with a spare front unit from Craigentinny?

As far as usage goes, each set only gets to make one journey each day in one direction, and it is mostly leisure traffic, so I assume this route stays to keep the tourist boards happy.

Could you clarify this post as I don’t really understand it?

 

[sprinterguy]

This was a problem with the train itself - a bit of a disappointment when I'd chosen that train because it is the only HST each day. After about 30 mins, the header unit came through, but kept on going, not sure where to, I thought base was Craigentinny, but might have needed to get it out the way? Clearly it had some power, but not enough to drag a rake of coaches.

Then the full train come through, I assume with a spare front unit from Craigentinny?

As the failed power car was facing West, and a single power car on it's own only has a driving cab at the leading end, then it probably would have been returning to Craigentinny via the Edinburgh sub line to avoid running in reverse, requiring it to run through Haymarket rather than taking the direct route East from Waverley.

It is likely that a power car swap will have been undertaken at Waverley using a spare replacement power car from Craigentinny. There are also many other reasons why a train would be taken out of service other than just loss of power.

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for the correction.

So do the crew overnight in Inverness, then run the morning service back down? Either way, that's expensive compared to a low cost airline who will send the plane straight back, and that is the competition here just as much (well actually more so) compared to the FSR services.

If you have crew based in Inverness working a smaller number of long days (12 hours including a 2 hour meal break at Newcastle) they'd go down on the morning service and back on the evening.

If they could integrate with Scotrail you could have Edinburgh-based crews doing Edinburgh - Inverness and back in around 8.5 hours.

 

[Zoe]

several single track sections have a 100mph speed limit

I know there's a 100 mph section north of Kingussie. Where are the the other 100 mph sections?