North East Wales transport task force results

[merlodlliw]

The following findings of the WG backed North East Wales transport task force were released at noon today.
It makes interesting reading with a new station at Wrexham.

This is how Eryl Crump of the local Daily Post sees it.

Plans for new railway stations, faster bus services and linked-up timetables along with park, share and ride sites to ensure commuters can get to work easily across North east Wales have been unveiled.

North East Wales Integrated Transport Task Force, set up by the Welsh government, found “strong support” for a direct rail services to Liverpool, not seen since the 1970s. Passengers from North Wales currently have to change at either Bidston or Chester.

The plans include linking up services across the region and into Cheshire, Wirral, Merseyside and Shropshire. It sees new park, share and ride sites across Flintshire, Wrexham and Denbighshire to reduce car numbers and traffic congestion plus new railway stations at Hawarden Bridge and North Wrexham, more and faster services, plus improved bus hubs in towns, green corridors and more cycling routes.

The scheme, which is now open to consultation, aims to ensure transport links help firms stay competitive and attract skilled workers without putting extra demand on the road network.

Welcoming the plans Antoinette Sandbach, Shadow Rural Affairs Minister for Wales, is concerned those living in the countryside could lose out, if transport services are sucked away from villages.

Se said: “The report quite rightly points out that public transport is patchy, even in urban areas, and those in rural areas without a car have poor access to jobs and services.

“At present it’s hard to find out what the public transport services run in the area, how they link together or where buy through tickets, putting rural areas at a disadvantage.

“The report suggests more rural pick-up points, with services linking to express buses and even providing drop-off points for home delivery and post offices, which is to be welcomed.

“Welsh Conservatives have been calling for years for a linked-up transport plan. It must take into account the needs of those living in rural, more sparsely populated areas who need affordable transport to get to work in the day or out in the evening and weekends for pleasure, and not simply concentrate on getting people from towns to jobs on large industrial estates.”

The task force also strong support for the reinstatement of the Halton Curve near Runcorn to enable direct services to operate from Chester to Liverpool.

Clwyd West AM Darren Millar, who also welcomed the report, said he would call on the Welsh government to take the issue forward.

"I have been campaigning for years to get a direct service between north Wales and Liverpool reinstated, so I am delighted that the task force have recognised the need to improve services to and from North Wales to the north west and particularly Liverpool,” he said..

North Wales’ economy is worth £10.4 billion, and supports 30% of the country’s manufacturing jobs. But one in five turn down jobs because they discover they can’t get to their new place of work from home by public transport.

Interesting to note, there is a WG transport meeting Chaired by First Minister Carwyn Jones in Wrexham, tomorrow, so no surprise at the press release of the task force findings today.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have you found a link to the actual report?
I would be interested in what they say about electrification.
Not sure Wrexham needs another station.
I should think the one proposed at Hawarden Bridge is a relocation of the current one to better serve the Deeside business park.
The present station is one of the least used on the network (about 15 passengers a day, on the three peak-hour trains which call).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Have you found a link to the actual report?
I would be interested in what they say about electrification.
Not sure Wrexham needs another station.
I should think the one proposed at Hawarden Bridge is a relocation of the current one to better serve the Deeside business park.
The present station is one of the least used on the network (about 15 passengers a day, on the three peak-hour trains which call).

Not best sited for ind estate, Dee Marsh Jnc to Chester Northgate line was better placed!

 

[kieron]

Have you found a link to the actual report?

It's on the TAITH site. There are two report documents there, a summary one and a technical one.

It probably is more useful to read the report than to read what a couple of Tories think of it.

I would be interested in what they say about electrification.

I don't think it comes up. They're more interested in getting 2tph on all routes.

Not sure Wrexham needs another station.

I think the idea is to provide 'buses to let people travel to Wrexham Industrial Estate without going through the town centre. Neither Wrexham General nor Gwersyllt is well sited for this.

I should think the one proposed at Hawarden Bridge is a relocation of the current one to better serve the Deeside business park.
The present station is one of the least used on the network (about 15 passengers a day, on the three peak-hour trains which call).

They're looking at either improving Hawarden Bridge or replacing it with a new station nearby. My feeling is that they'll choose the former, as there isn't really anywhere you could put a station which is close to where many people work, and improving access to the current station would be easier to do.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's on the TAITH site. There are two report documents there, a summary one and a technical one.

Thanks for the links. It's a good report, but not really about rail improvements per se.
As you say it's more about developing transport hubs and improving mobility using all modes.
For me, it demonstrates the downside of devolution.
Organising cross-authority/cross-border services has become harder.

I had to smile at the top proposal, for a new bus service between Birkenhead and Mold to link communities and workplaces en route.
In my youth this existed as Crosville service F1 (hourly Birkenhead Woodside-Hooton-Queensferry-Mold-Pantymwyn), and we seem to have lost it in the meantime.

From a long-distance rail perspective, new stations at Wrexham North (and Saltney Ferry/Airbus is also mentioned) would prolong already slow journey times.
But a big tick for analysing the issues.
I'm glad someone is at least studying the cross-border problems (and opportunities).
Will anyone in Cardiff Bay notice?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Our local MP is campaigning hard for the Halton Curve.
http://www.grahamevansmp.com/campaigns/halton-curve-connecting-weaver-vale

So we have CWAC, Merseyrail, Halton Council, HAGATI and our friend in Wales all on the case.

 

[Penmorfa]

I had to smile at the top proposal, for a new bus service between Birkenhead and Mold to link communities and workplaces en route.
In my youth this existed as Crosville service F1 (hourly Birkenhead Woodside-Hooton-Queensferry-Mold-Pantymwyn), and we seem to have lost it in the meantime.

I seem to remember it was F10 hourly to Loggerheads and F11 hourly to Pantymwyn, Lodekka double deck buses that changed crews at New Ferry. I use to use the service at weekends to shed bash on Merseyside after Mold lost its passenger trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I seem to remember it was F10 hourly to Loggerheads and F11 hourly to Pantymwyn, Lodekka double deck buses that changed crews at New Ferry. I use to use the service at weekends to shed bash on Merseyside after Mold lost its passenger trains.

I'm sure you are right, but where did the F1 go then?
I was a student bus conductor for Crosville at Chester for a couple of summers but we didn't do any of the F (Birkenhead) routes (or B Mold or D Wrexham).
But we did some A1 (Rhyl) services where the local kids would run rings round me in Welsh...
Also the C56 (the back way into Wrexham via Farndon and Holt).

 

[PHILIPE]

I think there is a need for more joined up transport in Mid-Wales. There are no bus stops at either Welshpool or Knighton stations.

 

[merlodlliw]

You may be interested in the letter I have written to the local Dailies(Wrexham Leader and Daily Post) after attending the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee held yesterday in Wrexham.

Last Friday I attended the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, held at Rhos, Wrexham.

It was a very interesting meeting, however it was disappointing to hear the First Minister say the redoubling of the Wrexham to Saltney railway was beset with problems concerning Network Rail.

Myself along with others have campaigned for the redoubling of this line which is now running at capacity on the single track, in 2008 Welsh Government Minister Ian Wyn Jones requested Network Rail to cost the project for work to commence, yet five years later the line remains single track.

What is more worrying the Current Minister Edwina Hart stated on 18th July ,” I shall be reviewing the processes and decision making behind the rail infrastructure project to reduce North - South journey times and redouble the railway between Wrexham and Saltney. The Welsh Government committed to this project in 2008 and contracted Network Rail to deliver it, but the project has been significantly delayed.”

It is my opinion the double tracking from Wrexham to Chester could now be delayed for years, Welsh Govt have the funds, so why is the project, delayed yet again,

During the open session I informed the Committee of my grave concern over the delay and wondered why after five years was the project still on hold, yet in South Wales the redoubling of the single track at Gowerton was completed this year within a three year time frame, To me a rail user I get the impression Wrexham is in the North so it can wait, but Gowerton is in the South so do it now.

Wrexham the Largest town in North Wales with only one train an hour to Chester and North Wales deserves better.

Bob

 

[Penmorfa]

I'm sure you are right, but where did the F1 go then?
I was a student bus conductor for Crosville at Chester for a couple of summers but we didn't do any of the F (Birkenhead) routes (or B Mold or D Wrexham).
But we did some A1 (Rhyl) services where the local kids would run rings round me in Welsh...
Also the C56 (the back way into Wrexham via Farndon and Holt).

This site, http://dartslf.com/forum/printthread.php?tid=132&page=2
shows the F1 as Woodside - Vauxhall/Bowaters works service in 1974. But that is well after the period I had in mind

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You may be interested in the letter I have written to the local Dailies(Wrexham Leader and Daily Post) after attending the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee held yesterday in Wrexham.
Bob

I can only think that the ORR CP5 determination for NR in June did not include the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling (the projects listed were much bigger).
It was certainly in the NR submission in January 2013.
ORR and NR are now boxing over the small print ready for final approval in January 2014 (saving £2bn among other things).
Meanwhile, are there not improvements taking shape on the Shrewsbury-Wrexham route already?
I thought this was all part of the same North-South project funding.

I have never quite understood where the £45m is coming from.
If from ORR, then we might have to wait.
If from WG, then WG would know if it was available or not, surely.

I suppose a final concern might be NR's ability to actually manage the work next year, given everything else they have to do in CP5 (ie timescale rather than funding).

 

[merlodlliw]

I can only think that the ORR CP5 determination for NR in June did not include the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling (the projects listed were much bigger).
It was certainly in the NR submission in January 2013.
ORR and NR are now boxing over the small print ready for final approval in January 2014 (saving £2bn among other things).
Meanwhile, are there not improvements taking shape on the Shrewsbury-Wrexham route already?
I thought this was all part of the same North-South project funding.

I have never quite understood where the £45m is coming from.
If from ORR, then we might have to wait.
If from WG, then WG would know if it was available or not, surely.

I suppose a final concern might be NR's ability to actually manage the work next year, given everything else they have to do in CP5 (ie timescale rather than funding).

£30M of WG funds was ring fenced by IWJ before his departure as Rail Minister for the redouble, Network Rail have spent far too long in drawing up the costings and plans for the redouble. Five years in supplying the information to WG (the customer), either means NR dont want the contract, or the people at WG do not have the ability to chase. The previous Minister inherited this problem, the new Minister Edwina Hart is looking for savings.

The new station at Rossett(Wrexham North) is vital to service the Super Prison to be built on the Industrial Estate.

Another North Wales A.M. I spoke to told me Welsh Government appears to be placing increasing emphasis in the South Wales Metro project and he wonders whether resources are being transferred within Network Rail.

As for the other work WG have paid Network Rail another £12M.

 

[jones_bangor]

I wonder whether replacing the current 60mph plate jointed track with 80 / 90 mph welded track would be another option for Wrexham - Saltney? (i.e. decrease the journey time)....and maybe a short section of double track at Saltney off the North Wales Mainline for any "queuing"?

Something's definitely up, and I do wonder whether "savings have to be made"?.....

 

[Holly]

Is Paul Salveson's proposed Rail Cymru possibly the answer?
http://www.party.coop/files/2012/11/Welsh-Rail-pamphlet-online.pdf.pdf.pdf.pdf

 

[anthony263]

Is Paul Salveson's proposed Rail Cymru possibly the answer?
http://www.party.coop/files/2012/11/Welsh-Rail-pamphlet-online.pdf.pdf.pdf.pdf

tainly I think it would be a cheaper operation than the current ATW franchise.

There was an article in a recent issue of Todays Railways UK on RailCymru.

As for the South Wales Metro project it sounds good on paper except there may be issue's pathing tram-trains over the relief lines between Cardiff Central & St Mellons/Newport in part due to safety concerns paths trams between heavy freight trains.

I also have concerns about whether 4 trains per hour would be enough to cope with high passenger demands in particular on the east-west llink proposed.
Then again if it means the line to Beddau is opened then so be it.

 

[merlodlliw]

I wonder whether replacing the current 60mph plate jointed track with 80 / 90 mph welded track would be another option for Wrexham - Saltney? (i.e. decrease the journey time)....and maybe a short section of double track at Saltney off the North Wales Mainline for any "queuing"?

Something's definitely up, and I do wonder whether "savings have to be made"?.....

I agree somethings up, I have now seen an e mail from Network Rail sent to our local rail user group, it states NR have everything in place to commence work from October this year on the redouble, NR just require WG to confirm the funds to them, the work includes a 16 day blockade August 2014.
Since I attended the First Ministers meeting last Friday I now wonder if the ring fenced funds for the work are secure.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Below is the the front page from todays local Daily Post www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/fears-future-36m-north-east-5307179 reporter Steve Bagnall was tipped off by myself after last Fridays Welsh Government meeting in Wrexham.

A £36M scheme to improve rail links in north east Wales appeared in limbo last night with council transport chiefs fearing a U-turn.

The Wrexham to Chester line was to be redoubled, after it went down to single track 30 years ago, following an announcement by the Welsh Government in March last year to increase speeds and capacity.

But Network Rail bosses, who are working with the Welsh Government, confirmed yesterday they are now considering other cost effective options.

Welsh Government transport minister Edwina Hart, has also confirmed she will be “reviewing the processes and decision making,” behind the initial scheme. Wrexham council chiefs expressed major concerns over the scheme’s delay.

They demanded assurances the line would be suitably upgraded and wanted a timetable when it would start. The scheme was supposed to be finished in 2015.

In a written statement, Ms Hart said: “I shall be reviewing the processes and decision making behind the rail infrastructure project to reduce north-south journey times and redouble the railway between Wrexham and Saltney.

“The Welsh Government committed to this project in 2008 and contracted Network Rail to deliver it, but the project has been significantly delayed.”

A Welsh Government spokesman added: “A further announcement will be made after the summer recess.”

A Network Rail spokeswoman said: “It remains our ambition to deliver a bigger and better railway for Wales and we are committed to working with the Welsh Government on North/South Wales improvements.

“The progress of the scheme has been affected by several changes,” she said.

“We are now working hard on re-examining the options with an aim to deliver better value for money for funders and ultimately, taxpayers.”

Wrexham councillor and Rail, Maritime and Transport branch secretary Dave Bithell said: “It is disappointing if there is a delay as funding has been agreed with the Welsh Government, and it is critical to ensure north/south rail links are improved.”

Wrexham council’s lead member for the environment, Bob Dutton said: “I am very concerned by this delay and it is vital that the doubling of the line goes ahead as supported by the Mersey Dee Alliance and Taith.”

Co-chairman of Wrexham’s employment, business and investment scrutiny committee, Phil Wyn said: “It is deeply worrying that something that was supposed to start sooner rather than later, has been put on hold and there’s no indication when they are going to deliver.”

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I agree somethings up, I have now seen an e mail from Network Rail sent to our local rail user group, it states NR have everything in place to commence work from October this year on the redouble, NR just require WG to confirm the funds to them, the work includes a 16 day blockade August 2014.
Since I attended the First Ministers meeting last Friday I now wonder if the ring fenced funds for the work are secure.
Bob

This looks like becoming like the EGIP project in Scotland.
When asked to stump up, the government suddenly finds it can't afford the full scheme, at least not in the next year or two.
The cynic in me thinks WG will approve the line upgrade and speed increases (to secure the journey time reductions they wanted), but ditch the redoubling and associated resignalling costs.
That way they get 90% of the benefit for 25% of the cost, or some similar equation.

Actually, the headway on the current single line (60mph) is about 12 minutes.
If this was reduced to 9-10 minutes (90mph) there would be a measurable increase in capacity.
You should be able to get 2tph return legs out of that if carefully timed.

The trouble is that there are no services waiting for the new capacity.
It would just add to the capacity that WG/DfT can't use for lack of franchise money (like the Cambrian hourly service).
If the money is diverted, it will be important to find out what it is spent on. Cardiff's share of Valleys electrification maybe?
Hopefully things are not as bad as I'm painting.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This looks like becoming like the EGIP project in Scotland.
When asked to stump up, the government suddenly finds it can't afford the full scheme, at least not in the next year or two.
The cynic in me thinks WG will approve the line upgrade and speed increases (to secure the journey time reductions they wanted), but ditch the redoubling and associated resignalling costs.
That way they get 90% of the benefit for 25% of the cost, or some similar equation.

Actually, the headway on the current single line (60mph) is about 12 minutes.
If this was reduced to 9-10 minutes (90mph) there would be a measurable increase in capacity.
You should be able to get 2tph return legs out of that if carefully timed.

The trouble is that there are no services waiting for the new capacity.
It would just add to the capacity that WG/DfT can't use for lack of franchise money (like the Cambrian hourly service).
If the money is diverted, it will be important to find out what it is spent on. Cardiff's share of Valleys electrification maybe?
Hopefully things are not as bad as I'm painting.

The money was to come from Transport capital budget which has had a cut to it compared to what WG originally planned. Extension to Ebbw Vale town centre seems to be the rail project that has been favoured also there are rumours of heads of valleys road dualling being chronically over budget.

 

[Squaddie]

I thought there'd have been a thread about this by now, but a search hasn't produced any results.

From the BBC News site:

A Wrexham councillor says a proposed £36m investment in the railway line between the town and Chester has been left "in limbo".

Seven miles (11km) of single track is due to be re-doubled as part of the north-south Wales journey time project funded by the Welsh government.

Transport Minister Edwina Hart is now reviewing the plans, but Coun Phil Wynn branding it "deeply worrying".

Coun Wynn said it was "up to the council" to establish what the plans are and when the work will go ahead.

Network Rail, contracted to deliver the scheme, is "re-examining the options".

A Welsh government spokesman said a further statement would be made after the summer recess.

Network Rail said: "It remains our ambition to deliver a bigger and better railway for Wales and we are committed to working with the Welsh government on north/south Wales improvements.

"The progress of the scheme has been affected by several changes, including to specified scope and outputs."

This all seems frustratingly vague to me. I'm indifferent as to whether this project goes ahead or not, as it will not affect me, but there seems to be very little to work with in this report other than all parties saying that the plan is being reviewed. Does this mean that there is a possibility that it won't happen at all, or is it simply the timescale that's uncertain?

 

[anthony263]

Covered in the latter part of this thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86899

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is Paul Salveson's proposed Rail Cymru possibly the answer?
http://www.party.coop/files/2012/11/Welsh-Rail-pamphlet-online.pdf.pdf.pdf.pdf

Does nothing for Network Rail costs which are 50% of those in industry, ATW will still have £91 million staff bill and pay £39 million a year to lease a fleet of mainly already paid for ex BR DMU's. Its a playing to the left wing proposal to sooth angst about TOC profits not addressing the whole picture. ATW have made a healthy margin in recent years but there's been years when they haven't. Its a typical ideology based solution that's not looking at the bigger picture.
ATW manage the franchise to make profit in a not for profit franchise the motivation to do so will not be there I cant see how surpluses for investment will be generated.

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought there'd have been a thread about this by now, but a search hasn't produced any results.

From the BBC News site:This all seems frustratingly vague to me. I'm indifferent as to whether this project goes ahead or not, as it will not affect me, but there seems to be very little to work with in this report other than all parties saying that the plan is being reviewed. Does this mean that there is a possibility that it won't happen at all, or is it simply the timescale that's uncertain?

My impression and the views of a good many more, is the ring fenced money for the redouble is ear marked for other areas, or it has already been spent.
A bit of honesty from WG would not go amiss.

 

[swcovas]

I don't have any great knowledge of the financing of the various schemes but am I correct in thinking that Net Rail have already undertaken a certain amount of preliminary work on the Wrexham re-doubling scheme? If that is the case is that not money down the proverbial drain? Taxpayers money at the end of the day?

I am not stating that this IS the case but I'm curious IF it is.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don't have any great knowledge of the financing of the various schemes but am I correct in thinking that Net Rail have already undertaken a certain amount of preliminary work on the Wrexham re-doubling scheme? If that is the case is that not money down the proverbial drain? Taxpayers money at the end of the day?

I am not stating that this IS the case but I'm curious IF it is.

Given that NR were giving stakeholders in NE Wales a start date of Oct 13 with blockades planned for Aug 14 and offering to given presentations on the work you would assume it was a far way down the GRIP process.

 

[swcovas]

Given that NR were giving stakeholders in NE Wales a start date of Oct 13 with blockades planned for Aug 14 and offering to given presentations on the work you would assume it was a far way down the GRIP process.

Sorry to sound a bit thick BUT has anything been spent on the project as yet? It sounds like it has. Correct?

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't have any great knowledge of the financing of the various schemes but am I correct in thinking that Net Rail have already undertaken a certain amount of preliminary work on the Wrexham re-doubling scheme? If that is the case is that not money down the proverbial drain? Taxpayers money at the end of the day?

I am not stating that this IS the case but I'm curious IF it is.

Public bodies don't care about wasting taxpayers money.

 

[swcovas]

Public bodies don't care about wasting taxpayers money.

Yea.....I guess I'm just being naive!

 

[PHILIPE]

And they just plead poverty and blame the UK Government when it comes to provision of services to the taxpayer.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry to sound a bit thick BUT has anything been spent on the project as yet? It sounds like it has. Correct?

I think the various planning reports were funded by the WG.
There are a lot of new steel sleepers laid out ready for installation between Shrewsbury and Wrexham which looks to me like the first part of the upgrade spend, but maybe this is from a different pot.
Nothing physical has yet started on the section to be doubled.