Cross Country Voyagers Vs Virgin Voyagers

[185143]

Does anyone Like the CrossCountry Voyagers at all?

I went From Glasgow Central to Warrington Bank Quay on a Virgin Voyager, which was quite good, no common voyager complaints.

I was on a CrossCountry from Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke-on-Trent on Friday and by Macclesfield I was ready to get off. It smelt of toilet, it was horrendously overcrowded and CrossCountry Voyagers don't have shops meaning there was a big empty space!

 

[Lrd]

That big empty space where the shops were is for luggage and bicycles.

CrossCountry Voyagers are fine when there are not so many passengers on board. Go to the extremes of the network where it is quieter and you'll have a much more pleasant journey.

Virgin Voyagers suffer the same problems as CrossCountry.

 

[455driver]

XC Voyagers would have been better (although still not brilliant) if they had been built as 5 and 6 coach trains as VirginXC proposed but it was DaFT that cut the train length back to the 4 and 5s we have ended up with.

 

[142056]

The 'big empty space' is definitely needed. You can barely fit anything in the overhead racks, there's not a great deal of space under the seats because of a silly bar under them, and then the normal luggage racks aren't exactly ample. Having been on a Voyager from Bristol-Manchester full of students going home for Christmas it was more than clear these new racks are needed!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I guess it depends on what services you are using. Generally though I think they are largely the same, though coach D on the Virgin units is currently superior to anything XC has to offer on it's Voyagers.

 

[Zoe]

if they had been built as 5 and 6 coach trains as VirginXC proposed but it was DaFT that cut the train length back to the 4 and 5s we have ended up with.

Virgin wanted the trains extended in 2002 which the SRA blocked (The DfT didn't take direct control until 2005) but this was after the trains had arrived. From what I have read, 4 car trains were always part of the plan although at one time these were to be loco hauled and supplemented by a small build of 7 car DMUs that would have replaced the HSTs. In the end it was decided to go for a uniform fleet and a doubling of the frequency.

 

[sprinterguy]

Virgin wanted the trains extended in 2002 which the SRA blocked (The DfT didn't take direct control until 2005) but this was after the trains had arrived. From what I have read, 4 car trains were always part of the plan although at one time these were to be loco hauled and supplemented by a small build of 7 car DMUs that would replace the HSTs. In the end it was decided to go for a uniform fleet and a doubling of the frequency.

Correct I think, and that original plan later evolved into a squadron fleet of 4-car trains, both tilting and non-tilting: Even the 221s would have been 4-car, there wouldn't have been any 5-car units as we actually ended up with.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just to expand this topic a bit further, how do both compare to the Class 222 Meridians? They are essentially the same train, arent they? I've never been on a Meridian so I can't compare.

 

[chris89]

Just to expand this topic a bit further, how do both compare to the Class 222 Meridians? They are essentially the same train, arent they? I've never been on a Meridian so I can't compare.

I believe slightly wider as not built to have tilt so not having to keep in mind loading gauge issues like the 221s with tilt?

Although never been on a 222 myself.

XC & VT Voyagers at least for the ones i have been on are all good. Had one or two more duff XC units then VT but various reasons why. Mostly due to some members of the general public making a mess.

Chris

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe slightly wider as not built to have tilt so not having to keep in mind loading gauge issues like the 221s with tilt?

It's the same body shell but my understanding is that they were able to move more equipment under the floor and out of the roof meaning that the interior feels more spacious. At least that's my understanding.

 

[corfield]

I travelled on a couple of 222s to/from Derby/Nottingham to St Pancras last week, was first time on one.

I must admit I was a bit disapointed after only ever reading about how they were supposedly better than the 220s to find I felt more cramped, and couldnt get my daysack into the overhead when I have done so many times on a 220.
There was a lot of first class in the longer one (Sunday eve StPanc-Derby). Which coupled with the trek from the Circle line platforms to EMTs ones rather disinclines me to use the route again I must admit. Next time back to Chiltern/XC via Birmingham I think.

They also had a strong toilety smell near the vestibules although not nearly as strong or pervasive as on some 220s (still !, will this ever be fixed ?).

 

[chris89]

It's the same body shell but my understanding is that they were able to move more equipment under the floor and out of the roof meaning that the interior feels more spacious. At least that's my understanding.

Very fair and thank you for the information as well. All i knew it was due to the Tilt for some of the equipment being moved between them and that 222's use a different base for the software as well.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I travelled First Class on 220026 last week and it was lovely. Couldn't ask for more leg room, had a comfy seat and free Wifi.

However, I got 220014 on the 1713 Bristol to Paignton last week which was horrendous. The seat reservation system wasn't working, it was peak time anyway plus Cheltenham races were on and it was clearly evident a 4-car train wasn't big enough. I try and stick to the two doubled-up services, which are the 1330 Bristol to Dundee and the 1306 Edinburgh to Plymouth, as there's always lots of space.

Last summer I went on 221112 from Crewe to Preston. In Coach D, the declassified First Class coach. Was a shame it was only a 45 minute journey, best train I've been on!

 

[Qwerty133]

I travelled on a couple of 222s to/from Derby/Nottingham to St Pancras last week, was first time on one.

I must admit I was a bit disapointed after only ever reading about how they were supposedly better than the 220s to find I felt more cramped, and couldnt get my daysack into the overhead when I have done so many times on a 220.
There was a lot of first class in the longer one (Sunday eve StPanc-Derby). Which coupled with the trek from the Circle line platforms to EMTs ones rather disinclines me to use the route again I must admit. Next time back to Chiltern/XC via Birmingham I think.

They also had a strong toilety smell near the vestibules although not nearly as strong or pervasive as on some 220s (still !, will this ever be fixed ?).

Yes, there is to much first in the 7 car units but that is down to the operator not the trains.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to expand this topic a bit further, how do both compare to the Class 222 Meridians? They are essentially the same train, arent they? I've never been on a Meridian so I can't compare.

I have no particular liking for the 222s (I may be the only one), but I'd say they aren't much worse than the Voyagers. The problem I have with them (over the Voyagers) is the crew doors, two on each side of each unit in place of passenger doors. On one particular trip I recall, a crew door on the eighth coach of a 2x5 car train and a late station announcement, led to a 15 minute delay at Market Harborough (8 car platform), and the threat of de-training all the passengers, after a women with luggage and kids could not make it from the ninth coach to the passenger door at the far end of the eighth coach in time to disembark.

 

[trentside]

I spent six hours on Meridians yesterday between Lincoln and St Pancras, and I've got to agree that they share some of the Voyagers problems but also have their own. On the whole, I do find them nicer to travel on but they're not immune to the toilet smells - but its often nowhere near as bad (I find even at their worst, it doesn't follow you out of the vestibule) and I've also found problems with the manual sliding doors in the smaller toilets that slide open slightly when locked. I've no idea if Voyagers suffer from the same as I've never had to use the facilities on one before.

The overhead luggage racks on Meridians are another problem - they're far to small for anything but a small soft bag or coat. They do have a bonus in that unlike the Voyagers the racks are glass and contain up-ligting which really helps provide a greater sense of space. It also means there isn't a need to have such a huge light fitting down the centre of the ceiling. This is another feature which seems to help them feel roomier.

The Meridians also retain their redundant buffet space - which I feel could have been removed on their recent refurbishment to allow either more seating or increased cycle and luggage space. An opportunity missed, I feel!

 

[sprinterguy]

I've also found problems with the manual sliding doors in the smaller toilets that slide open slightly when locked. I've no idea if Voyagers suffer from the same as I've never had to use the facilities on one before.

Voyagers don't have any of the smaller toilets with manual doors, only the large disabled ones: It's one of the criticisms regularly levelled against them!

 

[Qwerty133]

The Meridians also retain their redundant buffet space - which I feel could have been removed on their recent refurbishment to allow either more seating or increased cycle and luggage space. An opportunity missed, I feel!

Or they could start using the buffet again, people shouting teas, Starbucks coffees, pastrys, soft drinks repetitively all the way down the carridge is just what you want to hear at 7am.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have no particular liking for the 222s (I may be the only one), but I'd say they aren't much worse than the Voyagers. The problem I have with them (over the Voyagers) is the crew doors, two on each side of each unit in place of passenger doors. On one particular trip I recall, a crew door on the eighth coach of a 2x5 car train and a late station announcement, led to a 15 minute delay at Market Harborough (8 car platform), and the threat of de-training all the passengers, after a women with luggage and kids could not make it from the ninth coach to the passenger door at the far end of the eighth coach in time to disembark.

It's just a shame the door nearest to standard in first isn't a Crewe door, the same people get on there everyday on some services, and walk through to standard before anyone who sticks to the NRCOC get chance to board.

 

[clc]

Do all CrossCountry trains have aircon? I'm travelling from southside of Glasgow to Edinburgh tomorrow and notice they're cheaper than Scotrail (£10.30 off peak return v £12.60 for Scotrail). Journey time is also quicker as no need to walk from Central to Queen St. Don't want to be baked though.

 

[43074]

The only thing I dislike on the 22xs is that the toilets can stink the carriage out if their tanks are not emptied. Apart from that I don't think they're bad trains. I prefer the Meridians though because they are just more comfortable to travel on.

 

[tsubaki]

Just went between Chester and Euston on one without working air conditioning in Coach B, fortunately most of the affected coach was able to move after half the train got off in Crewe.

I was wondering however is there any point at which the set has to be taken out of service? The temperature was at least 35-40 degrees in there, and had it remained full for the whole journey there could easily have been people taken ill.

 

[Mugby]

I always wonder why the vestibule doors on Meridians have foot buttons on the floor as well as the usual push buttons on the doors. Voyagers don't have floor buttons, are they intended for the use of the trolley people?

 

[Eagle]

That sounds right (of course the Voyagers weren't designed to have trolley service as they all had shops).

 

[1e10]

XC Voyagers would have been better (although still not brilliant) if they had been built as 5 and 6 coach trains as VirginXC proposed but it was DaFT that cut the train length back to the 4 and 5s we have ended up with.

Why did the DfT block this?

 

[HSTEd]

Why did the DfT block this?

Because by the time train extensions were mooted XC was already haemorrhaging money.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Why did the DfT block this?

Because it would appear to be DFT Policy to provide
not
quite
enough seat for the expected number of pax 10 years ago, never mind now! A policy which is now being reused with the new IEP Order!↲
↲
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I tend to find VTs voyagers cleaner, nicer and better looked after over all plus they have shops. I quite like 222s and xnuld also like to see buffets used again.↲

 

[Flying Snail]

I always wonder why the vestibule doors on Meridians have foot buttons on the floor as well as the usual push buttons on the doors. Voyagers don't have floor buttons, are they intended for the use of the trolley people?

I wonder how it is that 40 years ago BR figured out a way for powered vestibule doors to operate without buttons and not close on people waiting in the doorway and yet a number of modern stock types including voyagers have slow noisy door mechanisms that constantly close on top of people.

 

[talltim]

I find the crew only doors on Meridians really annoying. As well as the one next to the closed buffet the one between the cab and first class is. This means that a four car set only has 6 passenger doors each side. The fact that the buffet is not in use means there is no need for a crew door there (and I don't like that I have to pay to transport closed shops up and down the MML)

 

[tsr]

Buffets on Meridian sets are still used when they are overcrowded, albeit in a very limited and crude form - a trolley can and will dock in the space provided, should the aisles further down the train be blocked. There still doesn't seem to be any need for a special crew door, though, I agree! I have been annoyed (but not inconvenienced) by it on at least two or three occasions.

 

[Zoe]

Because it would appear to be DFT Policy to provide
not
quite
enough seat for the expected number of pax 10 years ago, never mind now! A policy which is now being reused with the new IEP Order!↲
↲

The DfT have only had direct control since 2005. In the early days OPRAF didn't go around dictating to the TOCs in the way the the SRA and DfT later did. As discussed earlier, 4 car trains were always part of the plan and when Virgin introduced Operation Princess the idea was that although the fleet would be 4/5 cars, the frequency would be doubled so it wasn't simply a case of like for like replacing 7 car trains with 4/5 cars. At the time it may well have been a sound plan, I doubt anyone back then would have expected passenger numbers to rocket as they have done now. However when the Voyagers were introduced I believe there was a sudden increase in passenger numbers resulting in overcrowding. Virgin then wanted the Voyagers extended but the SRA blocked this and also did not allow Virgin to keep their remaining HSTs. There were good reasons for not allowing Virgin to keep their HSTs though as they were needed in the short term for "Project Rio" and in the longer to help with overcrowding on the Thames Valley routes.