Southern EMU order confirmed

[YorkshireBear]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-23353210

Derby-based Bombardier wins £180m train contract

A Derby-based company that missed out to a German firm to build trains for the Thameslink project has won a new contract worth £180m.Bombardier lost out to Siemens in a £1.4bn deal in 2011, prompting job losses at the plant and a major row in parliament.

The train operator Southern now wants the Bombardier to supply 116 electric rolling stock vehicles for Thameslink.

The carriages are expected to be delivered in 2015.

The order has the option of an extra 140 vehicles bringing the potential total value up to about £385m.

The decision in 2011 to award Siemens the Thameslink contract, to build 1,200 carriages, sparked huge protests in Derby.

The company, which employed 3,000 people at the time, cut 1,400 jobs at the plant.

Unions and opposition politicians called for the government to review its decision.

Now I thought some had already been built? Is this the order that is being made for the government where southern may never see these trains?? Fingers crossed the extra 140 carriages get added. We are going to need all the new EMUs we can get within 10 years.

 

[sprinterguy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-23353210
Now I thought some had already been built?

The 116 (+140) order proposed by Southern has always been additional to the 26 x 5-car Class 377/6s (and further option for 8 x 5-car Class 377/7s) that are currently being built by Bombardier at Derby.

Is this the order that is being made for the government where southern may never see these trains??

That is correct, although Southern will be merged into the Thameslink/Great Northern franchise in 2015 anyway.

 

[Class377/5]

Looks like I was wrong then. These units have been order by Southern but will be used to release the 319's to go elsewhere. Most likely these will be 377/8's as they need to be compatible with the 377 fleet, just like the 377/6 & /7 fleets. Expect a four car version of the 377/7.

 

[felixthebadger]

I'm a newbie to this forum so forgive me if this is common knowledge, but will the Siemens stock ordered earlier for Thameslink be used on different routes to the Electrostar stock when it becomes a mega franchise in 2015?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm a newbie to this forum so forgive me if this is common knowledge, but will the Siemens stock ordered earlier for Thameslink be used on different routes to the Electrostar stock when it becomes a mega franchise in 2015?

The Siemens stock is for Thameslink routes. The Bombardier stock is for routes other than Thameslink.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like I was wrong then. These units have been order by Southern but will be used to release the 319's to go elsewhere. Most likely these will be 377/8's as they need to be compatible with the 377 fleet, just like the 377/6 & /7 fleets. Expect a four car version of the 377/7.

A Southern press release from last year said:

Southern has also today launched a further procurement competition for 116 electric vehicles which will further enable the Department’s electrification programme which relies on the cascade of rolling stock released by the Thameslink Programme.

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...d-launches-competition-for-116-new-carriages/

 

[sprinterguy]

The Siemens stock is for Thameslink routes. The Bombardier stock is for routes other than Thameslink.

No, these new carriages from Bombardier are for Thameslink. It explicitly says so in the press release linked in the opening post. However (to answer felixthebadger's question) these are to be used as a stop-gap measure to release the existing Thameslink rolling stock for use on the new electrification schemes elsewhere before the dedicated Siemens Thameslink stock is ready for service. Once the Siemens Thameslink trains enter service, the 116 Bombardier carriages will be moved elsewhere.

 

[F Great Eastern]

A Derby-based company that missed out to a German firm to build trains for the Thameslink project has won a new contract worth £180m.

hmmm.....

 

[WatcherZero]

Looks like I was wrong then. These units have been order by Southern but will be used to release the 319's to go elsewhere. Most likely these will be 377/8's as they need to be compatible with the 377 fleet, just like the 377/6 & /7 fleets. Expect a four car version of the 377/7.

These will begin delivery in 2015, Desiro City will begin delivery in 2016

The rumour always was the units wernt originally going to be used by Southern directly, like LM and the 350's the Dft was using them as a proxy to quickly order the stock though the ultimate recipent was never named. late delivery of Thameslink stock though may mean that their used for just a couple of years before being cascaded (31977<700). The order has also been expanded with 140 potential options added to the 116 order.

I would predict these units will see out most of their life on TPE North or Birmingham-London.

 

[northwichcat]

No, these new carriages from Bombardier are for Thameslink. It explicitly says so in the press release linked in the opening post. However (to answer felixthebadger's question) these are to be used as a stop-gap measure to release the existing Thameslink rolling stock for use on the new electrification schemes elsewhere before the dedicated Siemens Thameslink stock is ready for service. Once the Siemens Thameslink trains enter service, the 116 Bombardier carriages will be moved elsewhere.

I meant to say "Long term the Siemens stock is for Thameslink routes. The Bombardier stock is for routes other than Thameslink."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

hmmm.....

For those who aren't aware the HQ of Bombardier Transport is in Berlin and the parent company is Bombardier Inc who are a Canadian company.

 

[A0]

These will begin delivery in 2015, Desiro City will begin delivery in 2016

The rumour always was the units wernt originally going to be used by Southern directly, like LM and the 350's the Dft was using them as a proxy to quickly order the stock though the ultimate recipent was never named. late delivery of Thameslink stock though may mean that their used for just a couple of years before being cascaded (31977<700). The order has also been expanded with 140 potential options added to the 116 order.

I would predict these units will see out most of their life on TPE North or Birmingham-London.

Why do you think Birmingham - London? I thought LM was already in line for more Desiros (350/4?).

And if they're for Southern, presumably they're going to be 3rd rail units - albeit ones which could easily be converted for either dual-voltage or 25kv - rather than dual-voltage or OHL as standard?

 

[hwl]

By the time these units become available as the last new Siemens units are in service southern or rather their successors will be wanting to ditch the 313s and 442s so they may not go far. Southeastern are also looking for more.

 

[158722]

By the time these units become available as the last new Siemens units are in service southern or rather their successors will be wanting to ditch the 313s and 442s so they may not go far. Southeastern are also looking for more.

Agree on the 313s and 442s, plus aren't some services meant to be moving from the Southeastern franchise to Thameslink? Hence, SE keep all their existing units, but with reduced requirement can reinforce other services, whilst the new Thameslink units allow the ex-SE services to be covered. The new 4-car 377s will surely displace the 3-car 377/3s which go back to where they were largely intended for on the coastaway services, displacing the 313s.

 

[Class377/5]

These will begin delivery in 2015, Desiro City will begin delivery in 2016

The rumour always was the units wernt originally going to be used by Southern directly, like LM and the 350's the Dft was using them as a proxy to quickly order the stock though the ultimate recipent was never named. late delivery of Thameslink stock though may mean that their used for just a couple of years before being cascaded (31977<700). The order has also been expanded with 140 potential options added to the 116 order.

I would predict these units will see out most of their life on TPE North or Birmingham-London.

Actually no, the first class 700 is due for delivery in 2015 and in service in early 2016. So its a matter of months as I stated.

Max life on these '377/8' on Thameslink will be three years.

As GW is looking for 110mph stock, it may not be TPE that gets them.

The 64 unit told is because the electrification plan for GW and NW called for 64 units.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has anybody found an authoritative source for this order?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the DfT, TOC or Bombardier sites.
Maybe they are (not surprisingly) having difficulty putting words together that describe what services the trains will be working!

 

[WatcherZero]

Why do you think Birmingham - London? I thought LM was already in line for more Desiros (350/4?).

And if they're for Southern, presumably they're going to be 3rd rail units - albeit ones which could easily be converted for either dual-voltage or 25kv - rather than dual-voltage or OHL as standard?

Yes 350/4's and refitted 350/1 would provide the majority of London services but would allow them to rejig their fleet and replace the three carriage non-corridor 323's and four carriage non-corridor 321's with either 350/2's or Bombardier units and at the same time allow some new routes theyve been itching for to the North and other neighbouring areas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually no, the first class 700 is due for delivery in 2015 and in service in early 2016. So its a matter of months as I stated.

Max life on these '377/8' on Thameslink will be three years.

As GW is looking for 110mph stock, it may not be TPE that gets them.

The 64 unit told is because the electrification plan for GW and NW called for 64 units.

Yesterday you thought they were quietly cancelled!
The first new Thameslink train will run on the network at the start of 2016 according to the Dft but it would be months before their available in numbers with delivery through into 2018. Like with the introduction of the 350's to TPE, you cant form a new timetable with just the first unit.

 

[Edvid]

Has anybody found an authoritative source for this order?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the DfT, TOC or Bombardier sites.

Southern press release quoted below:

Following an extensive procurement process, Southern has today announced that it has selected train manufacturer Bombardier to supply 116 new electric rolling stock vehicles at a cost of c£180million to facilitate the planned Thameslink cascade.

This order has the provision of an extra 140 vehicles which can be called in the event that further investment opportunities are identified, bringing the potential total order value up to c£385 million.

Southern intends to sign the contract with Bombardier at the end of the ‘Alcatel period’. This is a period of at least 10 days which begins with this announcement of our intention to award the contract.

When the contract is placed, the new trains will be used initially on the Thameslink Route, facilitating the release of existing trains to newly electrified routes. In the longer term, these new trains will in turn also be cascaded.

Southern Managing Director, Chris Burchell said: “We have worked extremely hard to be an effective delivery partner to the Department and we are very pleased to have reached this important milestone in the procurement of new rolling stock. This will provide essential capacity to allow our industry to grow.”

The Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin said: “Increasing the number of trains on the network not only benefits passengers but everyone, as the railways are an important engine for economic growth in our country.

“The Government has worked closely with Southern to enable this critical stage of the project to be reached and I look forward to these trains being delivered onto the network.”


Notes:

Southern issued the OJEU notice prior to Christmas 2012 and subsequently received proposals from manufacturers in January. An Invitation to Tender was issued at the beginning of February with final offers being submitted on 18 June to Southern.

Following this process, Southern identified Bombardier as the Preferred Bidder. Negotiations between Southern and Bombardier have now concluded and the parties are in a position to enter into the agreements for the manufacture and supply of 116 additional electric vehicles in 2015.

It is anticipated that the 116 vehicles will be delivered during 2015, with a view to their use in the Thameslink Franchise from the timetable change date in May 2015. Once the new Thameslink Rolling Stock is delivered, these new vehicles are intended also to be used on services on newly electrified routes.

 

[Class377/5]

Yesterday you thought they were quietly cancelled!
The first new Thameslink train will run on the network at the start of 2016 according to the Dft but it would be months before their available in numbers with delivery through into 2018. Like with the introduction of the 350's to TPE, you cant form a new timetable with just the first unit.

I did indeed. And I did say I was wrong. I only actually said it my personal feeling not official based on it all going very quiet.

The first 700 will be in service in early 2016, going off Siemens timetable that they already seem to be able to be ahead of.

There a big difference between the Thameslink and TPE as the class 700 can slip into the diagrams. There are already two 12 car all day diagrams on Thameslink so the initial batch of 11x 700/1 can slowly be introduced without needing to rewrite the entire timetable. There are already plenty of diagrams that stay eight car all day so the first sets can simple just be added easily. So there isn't the new timetable required like you seem to think as its already being done.

As you note then units are to be introduced in just over 2 year period. That's roughly a unit a week. Don't forget the entire fleet will be commissioned ready for use on the test track in Germany with UK drivers initially trained there. By the time they reach the UK those who will ensure they enter service will already been trained up and used to them, meaning they can hit the ground running.

 

[tbtc]

Am really pleased that this is going ahead (after it seemed to have slipped off the radar).

Wherever they end up in the longer term, this should mean that the newly electrified lines elsewhere in the UK aren't just fighting for 1980s stock (not that there's anything wrong with 315s/319s etc).

With these 116 plus the East Coast 270 (plus maybe a further 140), this is quite a good day for railway investment - I had to check for a minute that there weren't by-elections in Newton Aycliffe and Derby coming up that the Government was keen to win!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With these 116 plus the East Coast 270 (plus maybe a further 140), this is quite a good day for railway investment - I had to check for a minute that there weren't by-elections in Newton Aycliffe and Derby coming up that the Government was keen to win!

It's the last day parliament sits before the summer recess, hence the rush of activity.
So there will now be a long gap in DfT announcements as they will be mostly on holiday.
It would have been nice to get more details on the franchise plans/contracts, but I guess that is for another day.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Im sorry I am having a rather dim day today. Blame this bloody heatwave, could someone sum up what orders currently have. How many of what units? how many carriages etc?

 

[tbtc]

It's the last day parliament sits before the summer recess, hence the rush of activity.
So there will now be a long gap in DfT announcements as they will be mostly on holiday.
It would have been nice to get more details on the franchise plans/contracts, but I guess that is for another day.

Ah, cheers for confirming - nice to have some good news to tide us over through the quiet summer months (which will no doubt be spent speculating what colour of seats these EMUs will have etc )

 

[Class377/5]

Im sorry I am having a rather dim day today. Blame this bloody heatwave, could someone sum up what orders currently have. How many of what units? how many carriages etc?

116 = 29x 4 car units for Southern

270 carriages for East Coast of IEP classes 800/801

That's on top of the current orders of

26x 377/6 for Southern (130 carriages)
8x 377/7 for Southern (40 carriages)
10x 350/3 for London Midland (40 carriages)
10x 350/4 for Transpennie (40 carriages)
596 IEP 800/801 for Great Western
115x 700/0 & 700/1 for Thameslink (1,140 carriages)
57x 378 for London Overground (for lengthening all 378 to five cars)

 

[hwl]

Im sorry I am having a rather dim day today. Blame this bloody heatwave, could someone sum up what orders currently have. How many of what units? how many carriages etc?

Bombardier:
377/6 5 car, 26 units (130 cars total) 3rd rail only ex factory. Deliveries starting the the autumn, first few off the production line and in testing already.
377/7 5 car, 8 units (40 cars total) Dual Voltage ex factory. Delivery 2014

This latest order 4 car, 29 units (116 cars total) Deliveries 2015
Option with latest order 4 car, 35 units (140 cars total).

Also for TfL
57 cars to extend 378 to 5 car
Remainder of 133 S7 (7 car units) for Circle, District, Hammersmith and City Lines

 

[Class377/5]

377/6 5 car, 26 units (130 cars total) 3rd rail only ex factory. Deliveries starting the the autumn, first few off the production line and in testing already.
377/7 5 car, 8 units (40 cars total) Dual Voltage ex factory. Delivery 2014

This latest order 4 car, 29 units (116 cars total) Deliveries 2015
Option with latest order 4 car, 35 units (140 cars total).

The first 377/6 has already been running around before heading back for repairs. Four diagrams are expected to be in service in September. First 14 units are built currently. The first 377/7 is expected to be completed prior to Christmas.

 

[swt_passenger]

...596 IEP 800/801 for Great Western

Over in the IEP thread that order (from last year) is explained as already including the replacement of ECML HSTs though...

 

[Class377/5]

Over in the IEP thread that order (from last year) is explained as already including the replacement of ECML HSTs though...

I admit I've not been following this order closely but, DfT website todays states it differently.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has today (18 July 2013) confirmed a £1.2 billion order for more state-of-the-art trains to transform rail travel on one of Britain’s busiest intercity routes.

The 270 carriages will be manufactured in Britain by Hitachi Rail Europe at its new purpose-built factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham, as part of the government’s overall £5.8 billion Intercity Express Programme (IEP).

Alistair Dormer, Executive Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Hitachi Rail Europe, said:

“
This follow-on order by the Department for Transport is great news for passengers on the East Coast Main Line who can look forward to quicker journeys travelling on high-quality trains, with more seats and passenger space, built to the latest safety standards. This order is a tremendous boost for Hitachi Rail Europe’s new factory with its 730 future employees in County Durham and for the British supply chain. This order extends firm orders at the factory until the end of the decade with significant capacity remaining available for further UK and export contracts actively being pursued.”

Last year the Department for Transport agreed an initial order for 596 carriages with Agility Trains, a consortium of Hitachi and John Laing. As well as building the new state-of-the-art manufacturing facility, Hitachi is also planning to construct maintenance depots in Bristol, Swansea, west London and Doncaster, and will upgrade existing maintenance depots throughout Britain to service the class 800 series trains.

Notes to editors

This new order has a total contract value of around £1.2 billion covering the design, build, finance and maintenance over a 27.5 year period. This is part of the wider £5.8 billion programme for the class 800 series fleets that will run on the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines.

The government announced in July last year that it had agreed a contract with Agility Trains to supply and maintain 596 carriages as part of its Intercity Express Programme. The Secretary of State has now exercised a phase 2 option for an additional 270 carriages, bringing the total to 866.

 

[sprinterguy]

I admit I've not been following this order closely but, DfT website todays states it differently.

No, the 596 IEP carriages announced last July covered HST replacement for both Great Western and East Coast, consisting of 369 carriages for Great Western and 227 carriages for East Coast. The 270 additional carriages announced today (Bringing the total to 866 carriages) is a Phase 2 Option being exercised to provide 30 x 9-car trains to replace the IC225s.

The following statement released today confirms this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/intercity-express-programme
The option is to purchase a further 270 vehicles to replace the electric Intercity 225 fleet which currently runs on the East Coast Main Line with a fleet of new, high quality, modern, higher capacity class 800 series 9-car electric trains. This is in addition to the core order to build nearly 600 vehicles to replace Britain’s fleet of Intercity 125 High Speed Trains along the Great Western and East Coast Main Lines that were originally deployed by British Rail in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[Class377/5]

No, the 596 IEP carriages announced last July covered HST replacement for both Great Western and East Coast, consisting of 369 carriages for Great Western and 227 carriages for East Coast. The 270 additional carriages announced today (Bringing the total to 866 carriages) is a Phase 2 Option being exercised to provide 30 x 9-car trains to replace the IC225s.

The following statement released today confirms this:

Ah thanks. The wording of the release seemed to imply that today's was just about EC not just the class 801 for EC.

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah thanks. The wording of the release seemed to imply that today's was just about EC not just the class 801 for EC.

Yeah, I have to admit that the wording in the initial announcement didn't make it particularly clear!

 

[felixthebadger]

No, these new carriages from Bombardier are for Thameslink. It explicitly says so in the press release linked in the opening post. However (to answer felixthebadger's question) these are to be used as a stop-gap measure to release the existing Thameslink rolling stock for use on the new electrification schemes elsewhere before the dedicated Siemens Thameslink stock is ready for service. Once the Siemens Thameslink trains enter service, the 116 Bombardier carriages will be moved elsewhere.

Ah, thanks for that, it is a bit confusing. (to me anyway!).