East Coast IEPs Ordered - Class 800

[LNW-GW Joint]

Patrick McLoughlin has just announced the order for 270 IEP vehicles for East Coast services.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ht-for-more-state-of-the-art-intercity-trains

The latest order for the trains, called the class 800 series, will be operational on the East Coast Main Line from 2019 and will deliver significant benefits to passengers, including boosting capacity by 18 per cent, improving train reliability by a factor of five and cutting journey times between London, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh by up to 18 minutes

The announcement doesn't explicitly state how many trainsets or of what type, but I imagine they are bi-modes to replace the HSTs.

 

[philjo]

Under the "notes to Editors" section on the announcement page (linked from OP) it says that the Class 800s are Bi-modes. Electric Only sets will be class 801.

 

[sprinterguy]

Wait a minute, unless some wires have been crossed at the DfT then this announcement sounds an awful lot like the replacement for the Intercity 225s:

A total of 596 carriages are intended to replace HSTs on the Great Western and East Coast Main lines. These consist of:

369 carriages for Great Western
227 carriages for East Coast

This new Phase 2 order consists of an additional 270 carriages on top of this, bringing the total to 866 carriages. 270 carriages formed as 30 x 9-car sets was the Phase 2 option set out for replacement of the Intercity 225s.

The total number of 122 complete trains also supports this, as the HST replacement order for the Great Western and East Coast agreed last July was set out as:

Great Western: 21 x 9-car electric trains, 36 x 5-car Bi-mode trains (57 trains)
East Coast: 13 x 9-car Bi-mode trains, 12 x 5-car electric trains, 10 x 5-car Bi-mode trains (35 trains)

This new order of 270 carriages would cover 30 x 9-car trains, bringing the total number of units to 122.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Under the "notes to Editors" section on the announcement page (linked from OP) it says that the Class 800s are Bi-modes. Electric Only sets will be class 801.

Should have read a bit further!
So this is the 225 replacement order (30 trains), additional to the HST replacement.
So the East Coast bidders will have no choice of rolling stock.

 

[HSTEd]

I didn't think any East Coast IEPs had actually been ordered before this?

They could conceivably have changed the order make-up.

EDIT:

OK.... so the 225s are going too.

 

[hwl]

So if this replacements for the 225s does this mean we have an answer to the MML rolling stock question as 2019 is when the first electric stock would be needed on the MML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the next speculation is: what do you do with 30 cascaded Class 91+Mk4 sets after 2019?
MML?

 

[HSTEd]

It appears they are being used to send all the 225s to the scrapline.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

9 car Bi mode units so 270 / 9 = 30 units

Surely the 225 replacement will be all-electric? ie Class 801?

 

[sprinterguy]

9 car Bi mode units so 270 / 9 = 30 units

I think EC currently have 14 HST units?
But I'm not sure how many will be used on the new King's Lynn services but this might imply some additional services further to more northern destinations?

As I've already illustrated above, this order seems to have nothing to do with the East Coast HST replacement, which is already covered by 227 carriages out of the original order of 596.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely the 225 replacement will be all-electric? ie Class 801?

That was certainly the case a year ago.

 

[DarloRich]

The end of civilised long distance intercity travel is at hand. Sub voyager clones here we come

 

[jamesontheroad]

This has just emerged from the Whitehall spin machine.

Tell me again why 5 car trains on the ECML are a good idea? :roll:

Press release: Government gives green light for more state-of-the-art intercity trains
Organisation: Department for Transport
Published:18 July 2013
Policyxpanding and improving the rail network
Minister:The Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has today (18 July 2013) confirmed a £1.2 billion order for more state-of-the-art trains to transform rail travel on one of Britain’s busiest intercity routes.

The 270 carriages will be manufactured in Britain by Hitachi Rail Europe at its new purpose-built factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham, as part of the government’s overall £5.8 billion Intercity Express Programme (IEP).

The latest order for the trains, called the class 800 series, will be operational on the East Coast Main Line from 2019 and will deliver significant benefits to passengers, including boosting capacity by 18 per cent, improving train reliability by a factor of five and cutting journey times between London, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh by up to 18 minutes.

 

[sprinterguy]

A discussion is already underway here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1508787

 

[jamesontheroad]

A discussion is already underway here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1508787

Ta, mods please close this thread.

 

[northwichcat]

So the next speculation is: what do you do with 30 cascaded Class 91+Mk4 sets after 2019?
MML?

or XC? or North TPE (reformed in to something like 6 car sets)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It appears they are being used to send all the 225s to the scrapline.

Which wouldn't make any sense when they are talking about extending the lives of Sprinters to last beyond 2019 and constantly claiming electric trains last longer and are more reliable than diesels.

 

[HSTEd]

Which wouldn't make any sense when they are talking about extending the lives of Sprinters to last beyond 2019 and constantly claiming electric trains last longer and are more reliable than diesels.

In 2019 they will be 28 years old and there will be nowhere to send them really, XC will not have been wired up yet and is too obsessed with travel times to want loco hauled sets, Great Eastern has no need for the high speed capability and will likely be transitioning to EMU operation for the long distance trains about then.
MML will likely want another order of IEPs as they will have lots of off-wire running. (And even if they didn't you probably couldn't utilise the entire fleet)
So its hard to find somewhere they fit, whereas you can send Sprinters anywhere.

 

[northwichcat]

In 2019 they will be 28 years old

Which means they should have more than 1/4 of their shelf life left in them.

XC will not have been wired up yet

They will be able to run a Manchester-Birmingham-Southampton electric service by the end of CP5. Bi-mode IEP may be better to allow through services to Bournemouth to continue but if XC aren't going to get any IEP trains by 2019 then some loco-hauled electric sets and cutting back the service may benefit the XC network as a whole more.

So its hard to find somewhere they fit

With locomotives it seems easier to export them for use abroad then it does for DMUs or EMUs so if there is no UK option there may be a foreign option without scrapping them, as you've suggested.

 

[edwin_m]

MML will likely want another order of IEPs as they will have lots of off-wire running.

Where?

London to Derby/Sheffield and Nottingham will be electrified. The other MML flows are mainly to get the stock to/from depots. Corby services could be part of Thameslink or the units could overnight at Cricklewood, and units could be based at Derby or somewhere in the Sheffield area instead of Neville Hill. The Scarborough service would cease.

 

[HSTEd]

Where?

London to Derby/Sheffield and Nottingham will be electrified. The other MML flows are mainly to get the stock to/from depots. Corby services could be part of Thameslink or the units could overnight at Cricklewood, and units could be based at Derby or somewhere in the Sheffield area instead of Neville Hill. The Scarborough service would cease.

All the other services such as the trains they run via the Erewash Valley line?
You would have to rip up the EMT timetable and start again to get an all electric timetable, this is unlikely to go down well with the passengers on route.

You will also struggle to match the travel times offered by the Class 222s which means that the timetable at electrification would actually get slower, which again will not go down well with the passengers on route.

You might also struggle to find employment for the entire fleet since even with the Corby/Melton Mowbray services being operated by EMT with 222s they still only have 39 intercity trainsets, only 12 of which can be called "full length".

Their diagrams are still rather loose, at-least for the HSTs.

You want to replace a 4/5-car 222 with 9-car plus locomotive trainset?

 

[ModernRailways]

And there's me wanting TRAX loco's. Something about them had a huge appeal to me over another what is essentially just a new Pendolino only it's by Hitachi.

I did hear that the 91s may be bought by Freightliner to replace the Class 90/86s they have right now. With both the 90s and 86s being sent abroad.

Although, my guess is that they will be moved over to the Midland Mainline.

As for the HSTs they truly will be missed, but I can see them being cascaded down to Chiltern, and then being fully overhauled with new doors etc. Also, if the Durham Coast Line ever get's electrified (would be difficult right now with Metro) then I can imagine Grand Central wouldn't mind some new stock. There HSTs seem to be falling apart, East Coasts though could easily be seen as relatively new stock (10 years old or so).

 

[HSTEd]

They will be able to run a Manchester-Birmingham-Southampton electric service by the end of CP5.

So you want to run 225s on regularly stopping services that never run faster than 110mph?
There is no demand to support such a massive increase in capacity and the timetable would have the guts ripped out of it by the reduced acceleration offered by the loco hauled trainsets.

Bi-mode IEP may be better to allow through services to Bournemouth to continue but if XC aren't going to get any IEP trains by 2019 then some loco-hauled electric sets and cutting back the service may benefit the XC network as a whole more.

Or you could just use Class 444 alikes rated for 110mph and keep the through services without having to completely rewrite the timetable and without saturating the service with unneeded capacity.

With locomotives it seems easier to export them for use abroad then it does for DMUs or EMUs so if there is no UK option there may be a foreign option without scrapping them, as you've suggested.

They may be able to export the locomotives but the coaching stock itself would probably still end up on the scrapline,there is very little use for it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They may be able to export the locomotives but the coaching stock itself would probably still end up on the scrapline,there is very little use for it.

When you think about it, DfT is getting its own back on the ROSCOs (Eversholt in this case) for the allegedly high lease charges for ex-BR stock.
It will also kill off any significant upgrade plans for the 91s and Mk4s.

Another impact is to Alstom, who have nothing to play for now except a possible small Pendolino fleet expansion on West Coast.

Edit: If you dig into the DfT announcement to the Twitter link, there are a couple of interior photos of the IEP posted (mock-up I assume).
Looks spacious (probably First Class).

 

[yorkie]

Ta, mods please close this thread.

I have merged threads, as someone let me know about this message. But for future reference please don't leave messages to moderators on the forum (I wish we could read all posts, but there are just too many), instead please either use the report button or send a PM. Thanks

 

[gordonthemoron]

is there any scope for putting photovoltic cells on the roofs of trains to supplement the power supply?

 

[sprinterguy]

I did hear that the 91s may be bought by Freightliner to replace the Class 90/86s they have right now. With both the 90s and 86s being sent abroad.

The 91s would have to be seriously regeared for that. I know that they were originally intended to be able to haul sleeper trains and fast freight overnight, but in their present form the 91s would be pretty hopeless at shifting heavy loads like Freightliner trains.

Also, if the Durham Coast Line ever get's electrified (would be difficult right now with Metro) then I can imagine Grand Central wouldn't mind some new stock. There HSTs seem to be falling apart, East Coasts though could easily be seen as relatively new stock (10 years old or so).

Grand Centrals' HST power cars were re-engined more recently than East Coasts', probably giving them a longer life expectancy than the EC examples. I have seen no evidence that the Grand Central sets are "falling apart". It is likely that there will be additional 180s up for grabs by the end of the decade, as a result of the Great Western IEP order, if Grand Central had a desire for newer stock.

 

[northwichcat]

So you want to run 225s on regularly stopping services that never run faster than 110mph?
There is no demand to support such a massive increase in capacity and the timetable would have the guts ripped out of it by the reduced acceleration offered by the loco hauled trainsets.

Or you could just use Class 444 alikes rated for 110mph and keep the through services without having to completely rewrite the timetable and without saturating the service with unneeded capacity.

They may be able to export the locomotives but the coaching stock itself would probably still end up on the scrapline,there is very little use for it.

Right so you seem to be saying that adding extra capacity to the XC network would be a waste, the mk4 could all be scrapped and you'll order AC versions of 444s (which according to another poster on here is something that Siemens said can't be done as the 444 blueprints have now been torn up as they are an out-dated design)?

Network Rail are already planning to rework the Manchester XC services at the next WCML recast with half the services set to go via Crewe instead of Stoke and Stoke getting a LM Stoke-Stone-Birmingham service instead so a XC timetable rewrite is on the card.

If we scrap trains just because they won't use their top speed if they are cascaded to other routes then why not scrap the 333s which don't go above 90mph on any services but are 100mph capable?

 

[Yew]

How would a 5-car IC225 Accelerate compared to a full set, and a HST/Meridian.

I imagine a 5-car set, with a Traxx loco would be pretty quick. However I agree that the IC225 is not massively suited for some of the MML diagrams, however I guess they would perform quite well on the fast services.

 

[northwichcat]

It is likely that there will be additional 180s up for grabs by the end of the decade, as a result of the Great Western IEP order, if Grand Central had a desire for newer stock.

DfT in their IEP review have looked at using the 180s as an alternative to the diesel IEP option (which they seem to have dismissed) on secondary GW destinations.

 

[Class172]

If we scrap trains just because they won't use their top speed if they are cascaded to other routes then why not scrap the 333s which don't go above 90mph on any services but are 100mph capable?

Following that philosophy we could also dump the 172s. 100mph capable but how often do they reach that speed (or even get over 80).

 

[RPM]

Following that philosophy we could also dump the 172s. 100mph capable but how often do they reach that speed (or even get over 80).

The Chiltern ones regularly run at 100, but yes, I see your point re LM & LOROL units.