infrequent service: Why bother?

[The Barlow Boy]

My travels around the country this past week have shown up a couple of strange timetabled goings-on.
To get from Reigate to Farringdon I have a choice of four or five direct trains by changing at Redhill. However, the return journey is very different. Just one train (the 17.15) the entire day runs direct. Why bother at all with one train?
I travelled to the wilds of Norfolk on Monday. I was collected by car from Wymondham. On my return journey I realised the the nearest station to the village that I was (Tacolneston) in was Spooner Row. One train per day. Why bother, it must cost more to keep the station open than the fares income it generates even allowing for the price of rail tickets nowadays.
Now you're going to accuse me of being anti-rail. I'm not. I love travelling by train but by gum the railways make it nigh on impossible sometimes. There used to be a half hourly service between Tonbridge and Redhill. Not any more, it's hourly. Trying to get to anywhere in the south-east from Redhill/Reigate is a drawn out process nowadays.
Isn't it about time the line between Reigate and Reading was electrified? The times aren't really all that different from when the crash bang wallop shake rattle and roll diesels ran over there twenty five years ago.

 

[causton]

Stations such as that have one service a day as it is a costly process to get them closed down! Unfortunately it is presumably cheaper to maintain the station and its stop than to close it and go through the legal process!

 

[Bedpan]

My travels around the country this past week have shown up a couple of strange timetabled goings-on.
To get from Reigate to Farringdon I have a choice of four or five direct trains by changing at Redhill. However, the return journey is very different. Just one train (the 17.15) the entire day runs direct. Why bother at all with one train?
I travelled to the wilds of Norfolk on Monday. I was collected by car from Wymondham. On my return journey I realised the the nearest station to the village that I was (Tacolneston) in was Spooner Row. One train per day. Why bother, it must cost more to keep the station open than the fares income it generates even allowing for the price of rail tickets nowadays.
Now you're going to accuse me of being anti-rail. I'm not. I love travelling by train but by gum the railways make it nigh on impossible sometimes. There used to be a half hourly service between Tonbridge and Redhill. Not any more, it's hourly. Trying to get to anywhere in the south-east from Redhill/Reigate is a drawn out process nowadays.
Isn't it about time the line between Reigate and Reading was electrified? The times aren't really all that different from when the crash bang wallop shake rattle and roll diesels ran over there twenty five years ago.

If you have to change at Redhill to get from Reigate to Farringdon, then they can't be direct trains. I assume that you're talking about lack of services from Farringdon to Redhill though, and I agree with you on that one, I've been to Betchworth and Edenbridge recently and went by car both times as the train seemed too much hassle.

I do thing its worth making use of unusual through trains though, I'm off to Maidstone on Friday evening and will try to plan my visit around the 16.36 Bedford to Ashford International so that I won't have to worry about changing trains.

 

[tsr]

My travels around the country this past week have shown up a couple of strange timetabled goings-on.
To get from Reigate to Farringdon I have a choice of four or five direct trains by changing at Redhill. However, the return journey is very different. Just one train (the 17.15) the entire day runs direct. Why bother at all with one train?

These FCC services to/from Farringdon run via Redhill on weekdays. The frequency is appalling, although ever so marginally better Southbound than you make out. FCC have told me that for various reasons they have no plans to improve it whatsoever (partly because of the usage of paths South of Redhill by Southern & FGW services). It's a shame, because they attract plenty of commuters onto their joyous 319s!

(I do at least think they should stop some of their passing overnight services, as the only passenger trains calling at Redhill between around 0056 & 0528 are designated as stopping for staff only. The combined 50,000ish local population of Redhill & Reigate should be able to make a couple of overnight diversions from the Up/Down Main Lines viable! Engineering works & stock stabling should not be a problem if these are only affecting some lines on any given date, as all the through platforms at Redhill can access at least one line of each route.)

There used to be a half hourly service between Tonbridge and Redhill. Not any more, it's hourly. Trying to get to anywhere in the south-east from Redhill/Reigate is a drawn out process nowadays.
Isn't it about time the line between Reigate and Reading was electrified? The times aren't really all that different from when the crash bang wallop shake rattle and roll diesels ran over there twenty five years ago.

Off-peak loadings are so low between Tonbridge & Redhill that a half-hourly service would be barely sustainable. Local user groups & councillors have tried to support it, but with average off-peak usage on that section of route coming in at something vaguely around 28 persons per train, it's hard to justify. The stock is possibly not available, either, and the route is a useful freight diversion, so has to be kept clear of congestion at some times of day.

The North Downs Line is partially electrified between Reading & Redhill - unfortunately, all serious plans to complete this have been apparently forgotten or else they've fallen through. There are several hurdles to overcome. Questions such as... Do you electrify it with 3rd rail or risk an isolated OHLE scheme? Where would EMUs come from? Would the electrification withstand the very low temperatures in parts of the area in winter (the North Downs has its own microclimate, which can cause rather nasty winter weather)? As for the stock, the FGW Turbos/Turbo Expresses have recently been refurbished, and they're not all that bad. They could do with trolley services, disability access compliance and better air con, but they are not overly much complained about in and of themselves.

 

[JonathanH]

These FCC services to/from Farringdon run via Redhill on weekdays. The frequency is appalling, although ever so marginally better Southbound than you make out. FCC have told me that for various reasons they have no plans to improve it whatsoever (partly because of the usage of paths South of Redhill by Southern & FGW services). It's a shame, because they attract plenty of commuters onto their joyous 319s!

(I do at least think they should stop some of their passing overnight services, as the only passenger trains calling at Redhill between around 0056 & 0528 are designated as stopping for staff only. The combined 50,000ish local population of Redhill & Reigate should be able to make a couple of overnight diversions from the Up/Down Main Lines viable! Engineering works & stock stabling should not be a problem if these are only affecting some lines on any given date, as all the through platforms at Redhill can access at least one line of each route.)



Off-peak loadings are so low between Tonbridge & Redhill that a half-hourly service would be barely sustainable. Local user groups & councillors have tried to support it, but with average off-peak usage on that section of route coming in at something vaguely around 28 persons per train, it's hard to justify. The stock is possibly not available, either, and the route is a useful freight diversion, so has to be kept clear of congestion at some times of day.

The North Downs Line is partially electrified between Reading & Redhill - unfortunately, all serious plans to complete this have been apparently forgotten or else they've fallen through. There are several hurdles to overcome. Questions such as... Do you electrify it with 3rd rail or risk an isolated OHLE scheme? Where would EMUs come from? Would the electrification withstand the very low temperatures in parts of the area in winter (the North Downs has its own microclimate, which can cause rather nasty winter weather)? As for the stock, the FGW Turbos/Turbo Expresses have recently been refurbished, and they're not all that bad. They could do with trolley services, disability access compliance and better air con, but they are not overly much complained about in and of themselves.

Come December 2018 there will be four trains an hour from Redhill to Farringdon. It just can't be done overnight. Off peak connections to Farringdon at East Croydon are fine.

The story with the overnight trains at Redhill has always been that they need to retain the flexibility to send trains via the Quarry line when emergency work requires the line via Redhill to be shut. Hence, stops at Purley and Horley are fine but not Redhill.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Just one train (the 17.15) the entire day runs direct. Why bother at all with one train? I travelled to the wilds of Norfolk on Monday. I was collected by car from Wymondham. On my return journey I realised the the nearest station to the village that I was (Tacolneston) in was Spooner Row. One train per day. Why bother, it must cost more to keep the station open than the fares income it generates even allowing for the price of rail tickets nowadays.

Well there are other stations in the UK that get an absolutely appalling service.....even worse than the one you are referring to. Reddish South and Denton for instance....1 train per week (and only 1 way!), but incredibly people do use these services (although very few!). Then you have places like Teeside Airport as well....also 1 train per week! You've also got Newhaven Marine down my way....only see's ghost trains but technically it is STILL OPEN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTmumbrKohs

[youtube]yTmumbrKohs[/youtube]

It's all down to parliamentary procedures, it is more costly and difficult than ever to close a station that is the trouble.....after Mr Beeching closed stations and railway lines during the 60's people just didn't want to see it happen again. Whilst the logic would be to close the station, it just isn't the best thing to do that!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Also we don't know what tomorrow might bring. Lines or stations which it might make sense to close today might be really busy in the future. There was a serious threat of turning Marylebone into a coach station in the 1980s because the line was so run down and badly served. I dare say next year will see 15 million journeys made through the station.

 

[causton]

Indeed, there is that as well. For all we know a new owner could get Newhaven Marine into a very busy place and agree to pay for the cost of making the station fit to run passenger trains into again.
However if the line had been closed when trains stopped serving it in passenger use, would anyone even think about rebuilding the line? Once a station/line has been closed it will probably never reopen, even if there is an obvious need for it (my local one is Hatfield - St Albans and further east/west from there)!

 

[transmanche]

Also we don't know what tomorrow might bring. Lines or stations which it might make sense to close today might be really busy in the future. There was a serious threat of turning Marylebone into a coach station in the 1980s because the line was so run down and badly served. I dare say next year will see 15 million journeys made through the station.

Similarly the NLL was slated for closure under Beeching - just look at it now. 88 million passengers a year (including the other routes that formed part of the old Silverlink Metro).

Source: http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/01/18-fivecar-overground-plan-moves-ahead.html

 

[Antman]

My travels around the country this past week have shown up a couple of strange timetabled goings-on.
To get from Reigate to Farringdon I have a choice of four or five direct trains by changing at Redhill. However, the return journey is very different. Just one train (the 17.15) the entire day runs direct. Why bother at all with one train?
I travelled to the wilds of Norfolk on Monday. I was collected by car from Wymondham. On my return journey I realised the the nearest station to the village that I was (Tacolneston) in was Spooner Row. One train per day. Why bother, it must cost more to keep the station open than the fares income it generates even allowing for the price of rail tickets nowadays.
Now you're going to accuse me of being anti-rail. I'm not. I love travelling by train but by gum the railways make it nigh on impossible sometimes. There used to be a half hourly service between Tonbridge and Redhill. Not any more, it's hourly. Trying to get to anywhere in the south-east from Redhill/Reigate is a drawn out process nowadays.
Isn't it about time the line between Reigate and Reading was electrified? The times aren't really all that different from when the crash bang wallop shake rattle and roll diesels ran over there twenty five years ago.

I've always thought the Tonbridge-Redhill line is under used, there used to be direct services between Gatwick Airport and Maidstone West but not anymore, it's easier to go via London nowadays.

The line is also a potential alternative to the M25 for longer journies, how about an hourly service from Gillingham all stations to Strood and reversing there then Maidstone West, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge, Edenbridge and Redhill and then onto either Gatwick Airport or maybe Reading if that line is ever electrified?

 

[tsr]

Come December 2018 there will be four trains an hour from Redhill to Farringdon. It just can't be done overnight. Off peak connections to Farringdon at East Croydon are fine.

It's not just Farringdon, though. There is a huge market which could be served much better with more direct connections to St Pancras, Luton, Bedford etc. The improvements in 2018 literally can't come soon enough. In addition, Redhill Station is badly suffering as a result of poor connections to Brighton and that area. It's the single biggest complaint I hear about the service pattern.

However, enough complaining. It's probably not going to happen until around 2018, so we may as well forget it. It's a pity one Horsham-London Bridge service per hour can't run through to the core, or something along those lines (pardon the pun), but nope, it's not practical!

The story with the overnight trains at Redhill has always been that they need to retain the flexibility to send trains via the Quarry line when emergency work requires the line via Redhill to be shut. Hence, stops at Purley and Horley are fine but not Redhill.

Whilst I agree that flexibility is needed, on most nights, some if not all of the lines through Redhill are open at least some of the time. Thus it would make sense to treat overnight engineering on the Main Lines via Redhill just as it is treated on other parts of the Thameslink route - namely, run the full service if possible, or else drop in a few replacement buses. Something is better than nothing. The staff-only calls are almost reliable enough to become public, if that were actually the only obstacle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've always thought the Tonbridge-Redhill line is under used, there used to be direct services between Gatwick Airport and Maidstone West but not anymore, it's easier to go via London nowadays.

The line is also a potential alternative to the M25 for longer journies, how about an hourly service from Gillingham all stations to Strood and reversing there then Maidstone West, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge, Edenbridge and Redhill and then onto either Gatwick Airport or maybe Reading if that line is ever electrified?

I do support your proposal, and I think it would be very useful, but with the current infrastructure capacity at Redhill, I doubt another reversing movement or indeed any further moves over the junctions to the South of the station would be welcome. Perhaps another option to be considered, when space is available, would be a Banbury-Tonbridge via Redhill service. With further useful destinations and perhaps a higher frequency, the decent travel times between stations (especially between Redhill and either Tonbridge or Guildford) could be exploited and passenger numbers boosted. I'd also like to see a local "metro" service half-hourly between Dorking West & Godstone/Gatwick (all stations), to link the local towns and villages, but that is a ridiculous fantasy, I think!

 

[SussexSpotter]

Indeed, there is that as well. For all we know a new owner could get Newhaven Marine into a very busy place and agree to pay for the cost of making the station fit to run passenger trains into again.
However if the line had been closed when trains stopped serving it in passenger use, would anyone even think about rebuilding the line?

I don't really know what they could do with the Marine station if I am perfectly honest.....it is used as a car park at the moment. Its purpose was for the boat trains so people could alight for the Newhaven-Dieppe ferry but they have long since finished .....the good old days of loco hauled! I think if anything were to be done with the Marine then it would be at the expense of doing up Newhaven Harbour....

 

[NorthernSpirit]

IMO Newhaven Harbour and Newhaven Marine railway stations should be merged together, this would mean that both Harbour and Marine stations would become one station located on a new site between the two current stations.

For NR to do this, would be to build a new Seaford bound platform on the otherside of the level crossing, then once that is built the junction used to access Newhaven Marine (from Brighton) would then be removed, another platform (this time an island) could then be built on the site of the old crossover (in effect for an EMU to access Marine, it would be to run on the wrong line) the island platforms would become platform 2 and 3 (which would face the orignal platform 3, but minus the long siding as that would be ripped up and the land sold). The removed crossover would be then reinstated just north of the current Newhaven Harbour railway station and the 'new' station becomes Newhaven Harbour Marine, by using both station names at one site.

The original Newhaven Marine and Newhaven Harbour sites would then close and be demolished. Leaving just the newly oddly named station - Newhaven Harbour Marine.

The signal box would be kept.

 

[transmanche]

IMO Newhaven Harbour and Newhaven Marine railway stations should be merged together, this would mean that both Harbour and Marine stations would become one station located on a new site between the two current stations.

I have to ask: why? What benefit would this achieve?

 

[142094]

but incredibly people do use these services (although very few!). Then you have places like Teeside Airport as well....also 1 train per week!

It's now two trains per week.

 

[SussexSpotter]

IMO Newhaven Harbour and Newhaven Marine railway stations should be merged together, this would mean that both Harbour and Marine stations would become one station located on a new site between the two current stations.

For NR to do this, would be to build a new Seaford bound platform on the otherside of the level crossing, then once that is built the junction used to access Newhaven Marine (from Brighton) would then be removed, another platform (this time an island) could then be built on the site of the old crossover (in effect for an EMU to access Marine, it would be to run on the wrong line) the island platforms would become platform 2 and 3 (which would face the orignal platform 3, but minus the long siding as that would be ripped up and the land sold). The removed crossover would be then reinstated just north of the current Newhaven Harbour railway station and the 'new' station becomes Newhaven Harbour Marine, by using both station names at one site.

The original Newhaven Marine and Newhaven Harbour sites would then close and be demolished. Leaving just the newly oddly named station - Newhaven Harbour Marine.

The signal box would be kept.

Whilst I won't dismiss your idea as a bad one, as it does make sense.....I think there's probably more chance of Newhaven Marine being turned into a Motorail station!...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I have to ask: why? What benefit would this achieve?

For a start it would be one station in the place of two (one in use and the other mothballed) but also the original Newhaven Marine could then be closed and passenger services from there withdrawn.

 

[MCR247]

I'm still not seeing benefits that would be worth the money spent, all I see is something that might be a bit more convenient

 

[SussexSpotter]

For a start it would be one station in the place of two (one in use and the other mothballed) but also the original Newhaven Marine could then be closed and passenger services from there withdrawn.

I follow your logic of having one station serving the south of Newhaven and doing away with the ghost trains.....I just can't see them spending the money on doing this though.....

 

[sarahj]

There is nothing that marine serves that harbour cannot. At the moment its a handy place to reverse when we cannot get to Seaford. As another note, the curve from Harbour round towards Seaford is a bit tight, so whats the point of moving it, plus the tidal basin would get in the way.


As for night trains serving Redhill, as has been said, we need the flexibility of using either the quarry or redhill lines. They are heavily used and one or the other needs some work most nights. TBH, on some trains when Redhill is marked as service stop, its not until we get to the 'home' signal, do we know we are on our way into the platform and not on the through lines.

 

[SussexSpotter]

There is nothing that marine serves that harbour cannot. At the moment its a handy place to reverse when we cannot get to Seaford. As another note, the curve from Harbour round towards Seaford is a bit tight, so whats the point of moving it, plus the tidal basin would get in the way.

One thing they could possibly do is extend the northbound platform southwards so it joins up with the Marine platform somehow and is then one long platform. Keep the footbridge (for the port staff) but close the level crossing. Newhaven Harbour (current) would then become platform 1a, and the Marine would become platform 1b. What the Marine would become is an extension to the Harbour station and would be merged into one where some Seaford branch trains could reverse (in service). It would avoid the costly closure procedure and do away with the ghost trains. Whether or not you could legally count the Marine and Harbour as 1 station if they were to be merged like that i'm not really sure.....

 

[transmanche]

One thing they could possibly do is extend the northbound platform southwards so it joins up with the Marine platform somehow and is then one long platform. Keep the footbridge (for the port staff) but close the level crossing. Newhaven Harbour (current) would then become platform 1a, and the Marine would become platform 1b. What the Marine would become is an extension to the Harbour station and would merged into one station where some Seaford branch trains could reverse (in service). It would avoid the costly closure procedure and do away with the ghost trains. Whether or not you could legally count the Marine and Harbour as 1 station if they were to be merged like that i'm not really sure.....

Surely the closure procedure will be cheaper than all that?

 

[SussexSpotter]

Surely the closure procedure will be cheaper than all that?

Depends if they wanted to do that though.....nobody seems intent on closing it, at least not at the moment. I believe the idea has been suggested but not seriously. And if the station were to close....would the track and all the connections have to be removed as well????....

My suggestion of merging the two stations by a platform extension....it was more of a cheaper alternative to demolishing both stations and rebuilding a new one like ''NorthernSpirit'' suggested....but still following the same logic of having one station serving the south of Newhaven. Newhaven Marine was marked as platform 3.....but because the Harbour and Marine stations are currently separate and not joined in any way it means technically counting them 2 separate stations....even though they are within a stone's throw of each other.....

 

[transmanche]

Depends if they wanted to do that though.....nobody seems intent on closing it, at least not at the moment.

No, there's no pressure to close it as the status quo isn't costing them anything at all: there's no maintenance costs and no replacement services to pay for.

And if the station were to close....would the track and all the connections have to be removed as well????....

Er, no. Otherwise there'd be gaps in the rails passing every other closed station in the country... :roll:

 

[SussexSpotter]

No, there's no pressure to close it as the status quo isn't costing them anything at all: there's no maintenance costs and no replacement services to pay for.

Which is why I don't think formal closure would be the best option....

Er, no. Otherwise there'd be gaps in the rails passing every other closed station in the country... :roll:

I don't think you quite see what I mean there.....the tracks branching off to the Marine station are there to serve the Marine station only, it is a dead end when you get to the Marine. If the Marine station were closed no timetabled trains would be using the tracks anymore so it wouldn't just be whether to close the station, the same question would have to be asked for short branch itself I would have thought......

 

[transmanche]

I don't think you quite see what I mean there.....the tracks branching off to the Marine station are there to serve the Marine station only, it is a dead end when you get to the Marine. If the Marine station were closed no timetabled trains would be using the tracks anymore so it wouldn't just be whether to close the station, the same question would have to be asked for short branch itself I would have thought......

I knew exactly what you meant. I was just pointing out that by closing a station it doesn't mean you have to remove the track. It just becomes a siding.

 

[SussexSpotter]

I knew exactly what you meant. I was just pointing out that by closing a station it doesn't mean you have to remove the track. It just becomes a siding.

Fair enough, and that is true. If it were to become a siding instead of a branch line however....then as you would be changing the status of the line, i'd have thought that would involve some type of official closure of the branch itself to passenger trains, not just closing the Marine station.....

 

[transmanche]

Fair enough, and that is true. If it were to become a siding instead of a branch line however....then as you would be changing the status of the line, i'd have thought that would involve some type of official closure of the branch itself to passenger trains, not just closing the Marine station.....

The two are done at the same time as part of the same process... one closure process = one siding. :roll:

 

[SussexSpotter]

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