Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Stonesourscotty]

There is the plus point that third rail gets chavs and taggers nice and toasty but thats about it and unfortunately wild animals.

 

[DJH1971]

Whilst going into Manchester today, I can confirm that the substation at Newton-le-Willows is indeed wired up and all mast bases now appear to have been completed on Chat Moss with more steel work going up.

 

[DW54]

There is the plus point that third rail gets chavs and taggers nice and toasty but thats about it and unfortunately wild animals.

Back down in the sarf of the coontry, NR has shown ferocious reluctance to contemplate extending 3rd rail DC - preferring to leave "diesel islands" for now. In CP5, they will be undertaking a full analysis of replacement of the entire SE England 3rd rail network by 25kV AC. RSSB and others have already undertaken preliminary appraisals and found very positive BCRs, and much reduced full-life cost. The power wastage (or "resistive loss") involved with DC is well above 25%, closer to 45%. And apart from the possibility of offsite preassembly of track sections with either clips and insulators pre-mounted, or complete with rails offering some new installation savings (vs overhead kit) on new routes, all other aspects of 3rd rail add capital cost, reduced resilience and greater risk (per above post) - and greater maintenance cost.

Hope with the other 9 points raised, you're now clear WHY!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

8. No use for freight (assuming the freight TOCs can be persuaded to use electric locos).

On the one hand, there are DC freight locos - class 92 dual voltage, for example. That's how freight moves from the Channel Tunnel to the rest of Britain.

On the other, the 3rd rail system would struggle to deliver enough power for intensive freight operations. There is a limit to the sheer level of amperage (current) that can be delivered at 750-850v DC - and that in turn limits power available to locos.

HTH

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The power wastage (or "resistive loss") involved with DC is well above 25%, closer to 45%.

To give you an idea, a Class 92 pulling 4MW off the line (the maximum it can do on third rail) is using 5,333 amps of current, Conductor rail is typically .016 ohms per metre, so I^2*R = 5333*5333*0.016 = 455,054 Watts per kilometre that just goes in heating the conductor rail, nothing else. DC substations are nominally 8km apart, so that's 4 *455kW or 1.8 MW in heat; 45% wasted

The same loco pulling 4MW of the OLE (assuming a nominal 25kV, it is often higher) is using 160 amps. Standard conductor section is about 0.148 ohms per kilometre, which gives us 160*160*0.148 or 3,788.8 Watts per kilometre. AC supplies are a bit harder to put a feed length on, with AT and boosters etc., but just like for like with DC its only 14kW; 0.37% wasted.


No competition at all there. if you think my example extreme, one modern DC EMU uses 1.2MW...

 

[edwin_m]

To give you an idea, a Class 92 pulling 4MW off the line (the maximum it can do on third rail) is using 5,333 amps of current, Conductor rail is typically .016 ohms per metre, so I^2*R = 5333*5333*0.016 = 455,054 Watts per kilometre that just goes in heating the conductor rail, nothing else. DC substations are nominally 8km apart, so that's 4 *455kW or 1.8 MW in heat; 45% wasted

The same loco pulling 4MW of the OLE (assuming a nominal 25kV, it is often higher) is using 160 amps. Standard conductor section is about 0.148 ohms per kilometre, which gives us 160*160*0.148 or 3,788.8 Watts per kilometre. AC supplies are a bit harder to put a feed length on, with AT and boosters etc., but just like for like with DC its only 14kW; 0.37% wasted.


No competition at all there. if you think my example extreme, one modern DC EMU uses 1.2MW...

That is a little unfair on DC in that the AC feeder will generally be much further away than the DC feeder. However even taking this into account it is clear DC wastes a lot more power. In fact if the whole of the Southern was converted you could probably run the Midland Main Line with the savings!

A further advantage of AC is that regenerative braking can be used more often, because the regenerated current can travel further so there is more likely to be a train accelerating somewhere that is able to use it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

An OLE wire run has appeared across Ordsall Lane Jn, on the westbound line (Down).
It connects at one end with the existing wires at the east end of Castlefield Viaduct, and at the other to the single run which goes a short way up the Salford Crescent line (this has been up since Christmas).
Signs of registration metalwork being attached under the concrete bridges around Eccles (no stanchions here).

 

[DJH1971]

An OLE wire run has appeared across Ordsall Lane Jn, on the westbound line (Down).
It connects at one end with the existing wires at the east end of Castlefield Viaduct, and at the other to the single run which goes a short way up the Salford Crescent line (this has been up since Christmas).
Signs of registration metalwork being attached under the concrete bridges around Eccles (no stanchions here).

Must have been done yesterday then!

I didn't notice that whilst travelling into Manchester on Saturday morning.

 

[DavidL]

Mast base update: More mast bases / bases under construction from Garswood through to St Helens Central. Quite a concentration of completed or covered ones around Carr Mill, Laffak, and Islands Brow. Still several intermediate stretches with none at all.

 

[DJH1971]

Mast base update: More mast bases / bases under construction from Garswood through to St Helens Central. Quite a concentration of completed or covered ones around Carr Mill, Laffak, and Islands Brow. Still several intermediate stretches with none at all.

Great to be hearing this!

I wonder if they will be putting up gantries on the Carr Mill bridge, like those in the Castlefield viaduct?

Mind you, they would have to do the same with the Sankey Valley viaduct at Earlestown.

 

[driver_m]

Surprised this hasn't been put on already, the overheads are being switched on Sunday 4th August from Newton to Ordsall lane.

 

[DJH1971]

Surprised this hasn't been put on already, the overheads are being switched on Sunday 4th August from Newton to Ordsall lane.

Then they need to get a wiggle on with the rest of the wiring!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Noticed the metal work and wiring at Eccles was finished off in the last couple of nights, having not seen much work for a few weeks or so. Perhaps it is coincidental that the Patrick McLoughlin was there today?

 

[snowball]

NR says phase 1 complete.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...phase-of-North-West-electrification-1dfd.aspx

Network Rail announces completion of work on first phase of North West electrification

Downloads

Wednesday 17 Jul 2013

North West & West Midlands

Electric trains will be able to run between Manchester Airport and Scotland from December 2013, Network Rail said today, as it announced completion of the first phase of the £400m North West electrification programme.

The installation of new infrastructure on part of the world's oldest public railway between Newton Le Willows and Castlefield Junction marks a major milestone in the programme which will see over 350 track kilometres upgraded across the north of England.

At a short ceremony today at Eccles station, one of many set to benefit from the investment, Secretary of State for Transport, Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP, said: “The Government is committing record amounts of investment into transforming the rail network and it is great to see this work happening right now.

“Electrification of these routes will significantly improve connections between our major towns and cities, boosting the economy and providing passengers with quicker, cleaner and more frequent services.”

Jane Simpson, Network Rail’s director of route asset management, explained the benefits of electrification: “Electrification helps us to boost capacity, reduce carbon emissions and cut the cost of running the railway. Electric trains are also quieter, more reliable and have more seats, which is good news for passengers.

“This work is part of a wider programme of improvements that will transform rail travel in the north of England. By enabling faster, more frequent trains to connect key towns and cities we can provide the railway that the region’s passengers want and its economy needs.”

Lee Wasnidge, area director for Northern Rail, said: “Investment in rail infrastructure in the North West is helping us develop better and faster services for our customers. This electrification project is just one part of the massive improvement scheme being rolled out across the region. Eccles station itself is benefitting from funding secured from the National Station Improvement Programme with a brand new ticket office due to open here next month.”

Chris Nutton, First TransPennine Express programme director, said: "We are absolutely delighted that the investment in an electric railway for the north west of England is on plan and progressing well. It is a huge and unprecedented level of investment that will pave the way for yet more improved rail services for customers across the region.

"FTPE has invested £60m in a fleet of new trains that will start to come into service from December this year and will mean a 30% increase in capacity across our network. Customers will benefit from more journey options, faster trains and better connectivity and accessibility.

"The North West electrification and our procurement of an additional 40 carriages is a great example of the industry working together and shows our commitment to providing the best possible rail travel for customers now and into the future."

The next major improvements will come in December 2014, when electric trains will be able to run from Liverpool to Manchester via Newton le Willows and Wigan and from December 2016, when they will run between Preston and Blackpool, Manchester and Preston and Manchester and Stalybridge. This will be followed by the completion of trans-Pennine electrification from Stalybridge through Huddersfield on to Leeds, York and Selby by December 2018.
Notes to editors

The North West electrification programme is being delivered in five phases between December 2013 and December 2016:

Phase 1: Between Castlefield Junction and Newton Le Willows by December 2013
Phase 2a: Between Liverpool and Newton Le Willows
Phase 2b: Between Huyton and Wigan
Phase 2c: Between Castlefiled Junction and Manchester Victoria, all by December 2014
Phase 3: Preston to Blackpool, by May 2016
Phase 4: Manchester Victoria to Preston (Euxton Junction), by December 2016
Phase 5: Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, December 2016

Key facts for North West electrification:

Overall Cost of North West Electrification Programme: £400m
Cost of phase 1 including bridge work: £60m
Route Miles electrified (km): 24.3 km
Track miles electrified (km): 58 km
Number of bridges rebuilt: 3
Number of bridges where track was lowered: 5
Number of new foundations for overhead stanchions: 517
Number of overhead stanchions erected: 650
Km of overhead copper cable installed: 118 km
Km of aluminium cable installed: 92 km
Electrification distribution sites: 2

From 3rd July, Network Rail started to commission and test the electrical equipment with the aim of have the whole system energised by 2nd September.

First TransPennine Express will start running direct electric services using 10 new Siemens-built Class 350/4 from Manchester Airport to Glasgow from December 2013. These new trains will deliver an increase in capacity of more than 80 per cent on this route. The new 100mph, Class 350/4 trains will each have four carriages and a total of 210 seats, 19 of which will be first class.

North West electrification is part of Network Rail’s plan for the north of England, which includes the electrification of key rail routes, the £44m project to transform Manchester Victoria station and the building of the Northern Hub which will create space for faster, more frequent trains to connect key towns and cities in the North of England. www.networkrail.co.uk/north

The last significant electrification in England was between Kidsgrove and Crewe as part of the West Coast Main Line upgrade in 2003.

The Liverpool and Manchester railway which passes through Eccles station is the world’s oldest public railway still in operation. It was built by George Stephenson in the reign of George IV and opened on 15 September 1830 during the reign of William IV. Eccles Railway station is one of the oldest railway stations still in continuous passenger use.

A new ticket office is being built at Eccles station at a cost of £240,000 as part of the National Station Improvement Programme. Due for completion in August, the ticket office includes the provision of CCTV to the ticket office structure.

George Stephenson recognised the importance of electrification when he said towards the end of his life that… “one of the great uses to which electric force will be applied eventually will be the simple conveyance of power by means of wires (The Power of Steam, Asa Briggs, 1990)

 

[Silv1983]

"Lee Wasnidge, area director for Northern Rail, said: “Investment in rail infrastructure in the North West is helping us develop better and faster services for our customers."

I know TPE will benefit with the 350/4s in the pipeline. Not sure how Mr Wasnidge thinks Northern will benefit?

 

[Eagle]

I know TPE will benefit with the 350/4s in the pipeline. Not sure how Mr Wasnidge thinks Northern will benefit?

With whatever EMUs they end up with to operate Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services. Those will be fully electric by December 2014, although it might be another couple of timetables after that before they've got enough EMUs to run a proper electric service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I know TPE will benefit with the 350/4s in the pipeline. Not sure how Mr Wasnidge thinks Northern will benefit?

Journey times from Liverpool to Manchester (and vice versa) are expected to be cut by as much as 15 minutes (the headline figures were 54 minutes down to 30 minutes but the 'fast' Northern services currently take 47). There are also expected to be 2 stopping trains between the two cities every hour instead of the one (off-peak) currently running.

 

[edwin_m]

"Lee Wasnidge, area director for Northern Rail, said: “Investment in rail infrastructure in the North West is helping us develop better and faster services for our customers."

I know TPE will benefit with the 350/4s in the pipeline. Not sure how Mr Wasnidge thinks Northern will benefit?

Whatever EMUs they are in whatever condition they're pretty sure to be better than Pacers.

 

[DJH1971]

Whatever EMUs they are in whatever condition they're pretty sure to be better than Pacers.

Wonder if there is any more news on the 319's?

 

[Silv1983]

Journey times from Liverpool to Manchester (and vice versa) are expected to be cut by as much as 15 minutes (the headline figures were 54 minutes down to 30 minutes but the 'fast' Northern services currently take 47). There are also expected to be 2 stopping trains between the two cities every hour instead of the one (off-peak) currently running.

Aye this will be with the 319s though which aren't anywhere in sight - save the 2 "testers" which are coming up later this year for fitters to train on at NH and Allerton if management whispers are to be believed. The article was in relation to the completion of the first phase, which will change nothing.

Interesting to know though how they intend to shave 15 minutes off - as units currently run at line speed, and there's no talk of removing station stops. 15 minutes is a long time :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Aye this will be with the 319s though which aren't anywhere in sight - save the 2 "testers" which are coming up later this year for fitters to train on at NH and Allerton if management whispers are to be believed. The article was in relation to the completion of the first phase, which will change nothing....

Never hurts to get a bit of positive press coverage in (or so management keep telling me), even if the people have to wait for the promise to be realised/forgotten.

The rumours I heard going around for the first electric chat moss trains for Northern mentioned a different class of train (which were described as 'already available and rebuilt'), but that was when the Thameslink order wasn't ready to be signed and the 319s were set to still be running down south for a while.

....Interesting to know though how they intend to shave 15 minutes off - as units currently run at line speed, and there's no talk of removing station stops. 15 minutes is a long time :roll:

Electric trains are generally regarding as having better acceleration and there are planned line speed improvements, though I have my doubts that this will take off that much time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NR says phase 1 complete.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...phase-of-North-West-electrification-1dfd.aspx

Not true.
There were still at least three wiring gaps when I passed through today:
a) through Parkside (to connect the old and new wires - about 400m)
I suppose strictly this is not needed for Phase 1.
I can't see round the bend to Lowton Jn to see if the wires there are complete.

b) at Glazebury (about a mile without wires at the west end of the Moss)

c) through Ordsall Lane (must be at least 500m or so still to do up to the M602 roundabout)
There is only one wire run through Ordsall Lane Jn and that peters out quickly on the Salford Crescent line.

Even where the wires are "up" elsewhere they do not look finished over some stretches.

 

[DJH1971]

Not true.
There were still at least three wiring gaps when I passed through today:
a) through Parkside (to connect the old and new wires - about 400m)
I suppose strictly this is not needed for Phase 1.
I can't see round the bend to Lowton Jn to see if the wires there are complete.

b) at Glazebury (about a mile without wires at the west end of the Moss)

c) through Ordsall Lane (must be at least 500m or so still to do up to the M602 roundabout)
There is only one wire run through Ordsall Lane Jn and that peters out quickly on the Salford Crescent line.

Even where the wires are "up" elsewhere they do not look finished over some stretches.

Sounds like NR have got a bit ahead of themselves!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Electric trains are generally regarding as having better acceleration and there are planned line speed improvements, though I have my doubts that this will take off that much time.

The 15 minutes saving is not like for like.
There will be a 32-minute timing for TPE next year when it runs non-stop over the Chat Moss route to Victoria (with 185s initially, so it's not an electric thing).
This is partly from the line-speed increase to 90mph over most of the line.

That compares with the 47-minutes of today's Liverpool-Manchester Airport train on the same route which makes 3 stops to Oxford Road (Wavertree, St Helens Jn and Newton-le-Willows).
That train should also be quicker on the 90mph timings (if Northern use 90mph stock).

TPE can do the run today in about 37 minutes when they are diverted from the CLC route, even with a 75mph limit.

Sorry to spoil the party.
The main gain, when it comes, will be from the electric stoppers.

 

[snowball]

Sounds like NR have got a bit ahead of themselves!

The timing of the announcement was probably more influenced by the Minister's visit to Eccles than by mere facts on the ground.

 

[Eagle]

We'll the gap alongside the M602 is being done tonight as I've just passed the wire-stringing-up dealy (don't know the correct term) at work just west of J2.

 

[Class377/5]

Wonder if there is any more news on the 319's?

Aye this will be with the 319s though which aren't anywhere in sight - save the 2 "testers" which are coming up later this year for fitters to train on at NH and Allerton if management whispers are to be believed. The article was in relation to the completion of the first phase, which will change nothing.

Interesting to know though how they intend to shave 15 minutes off - as units currently run at line speed, and there's no talk of removing station stops. 15 minutes is a long time :roll:

The 377/7 introduction next year is expected to move 6x 377/2 to Thameslink with 6x 319's being freed up for the NW. However 13 EMU's are required for phase 2 so they might be using some 317's and diesels under the wires initially.

There won't be any 319's leaving Thameslink, there isn't the spare stock available. Expect them in about a years time tho.

Now we also know the new Southern x29 Electrostars announced yesterday means 29x 319 can be released starting in May 2015. So by the end of 2015 we should see EMU diagrams increased and possibly the first refurbished 319 running around.

Phase 3 requires an additional x24 units in December 2016. The Southern order means all but two units for the NW wiring will be freed up and the first batch of 700 Desiro City trains are 12 cars freeing up 3x 319 for each one introduced.

Bottom line is for Dec 2014 there won't be enough to fill every diagram. But by mid 2015, there will enough with units being able to be refurbished too.

 

[joeykins82]

Interesting to know though how they intend to shave 15 minutes off - as units currently run at line speed, and there's no talk of removing station stops. 15 minutes is a long time :roll:

Presumably a combination of overall line speed increases, higher speed limits for lighter EMUs and the acceleration improvements EMUs offer vs DMUs. To put the acceleration improvements in perspective there was a presentation on converting DC to AC which showed that journey times were decreased by ~30 seconds per station call just by DC to AC conversion, so this could be as high as a minute for DMU to AC EMU conversion.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 377/7 introduction next year is expected to move 6x 377/2 to Thameslink with 6x 319's being freed up for the NW. However 13 EMU's are required for phase 2 so they might be using some 317's and diesels under the wires initially.

There won't be any 319's leaving Thameslink, there isn't the spare stock available. Expect them in about a years time tho.

Now we also know the new Southern x29 Electrostars announced yesterday means 29x 319 can be released starting in May 2015. So by the end of 2015 we should see EMU diagrams increased and possibly the first refurbished 319 running around.

Phase 3 requires an additional x24 units in December 2016. The Southern order means all but two units for the NW wiring will be freed up and the first batch of 700 Desiro City trains are 12 cars freeing up 3x 319 for each one introduced.

Bottom line is for Dec 2014 there won't be enough to fill every diagram. But by mid 2015, there will enough with units being able to be refurbished too.

What about GW (Paddington-Oxford/Newbury)?
That is also supposed to be ready by Dec 2016 as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whatever EMUs they are in whatever condition they're pretty sure to be better than Pacers.

Do you actually mean trains with proper doors, no bus seats and no step access ? Heavens above, what is the world coming to up here in "Nortrhern-land"..

 

[Class377/5]

What about GW (Paddington-Oxford/Newbury)?
That is also supposed to be ready by Dec 2016 as well.

That's a good question. However the rumor they need 110mph for use on the fast once Crossrail opens, however using the 319's for a couple of years is possible with the new Southern order heading that way.

However the current Thameslink fleet is

86x 319
3x 377/2
23x 377/5

Total carriages = 448 carriages

At the end of 2015 its expected to be

51x 319
9x 377/2
23x 377/5
29x '377/8'

During 2016 the 700 are going to come with the 12 car 700/1 and 8 car 700/0. It'll require 11x 700/1 and 9x 700/0 to release the final 319's. Worked out as:

9x 377/2 - 36 carriages
23x 377/5 - 92 carriages
29x 377/8 - 116 carriages
11x 700/1 - 132 carriages
9x 700/0 - 72 carriages

So its possible that all the 319's can be gone by December 2016 if needed.