Intercités crash outside Paris, multiple fatalities

[broadgage]

Very sad.
Another report here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23294630

At least eight people are reported dead in a train crash at Bretigny-sur-Orge, south of the French capital Paris.

The intercity train had just left Paris and was heading towards Limoges when it derailed, crashing into a station platform at about 16:00 GMT.

Passengers were said to be trapped inside the train and a local official said there were "many casualties".

French broadcaster BFM-TV, citing police, said at least eight people had died in the accident.

Local MP Michel Pouzol said some carriages were lying on their sides.

A police source quoted by Le Figaro website said the train had split in two for reasons that were as yet unclear.

Other media reports spoke of passengers being electrocuted and crushed.

 

[LexyBoy]

Awful

More info here:
http://www.leparisien.fr/essonne-91/un-train-deraille-a-bretigny-12-07-2013-2977769.php - it appears to be an Intercités train which has derailed (at some speed by the looks of it) and possibly collided with an RER.

 

[ChristopherJ]

It was an Intercités train from Paris Austerlitz - Limoges that crashed, not an RER.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...9/Train-crash-near-Paris-many-casualties.html

Train crash near Paris: 'many casualties'

A train has derailed in the Paris suburb of Bretigny-sur-Orge in an accident that has caused "many casualties", according to authorities.

The Paris prefect's office said a "red alert" plan had been activated and the interior ministry confirmed the accident, but no further details were immediately available.

The crash involved a rush hour inter-city train which crashed at around 5pm local time on Friday in the suburb of Brétigny-sur-Orge in southern Paris. It was heading for the city of Limoges in western France.

It was unclear how many casualties there were but Le Parisien said at least eight people were killed. Many of the wounded are apparently still stuck in the trains unable to move. The report says some passengers were electrocuted and crushed.

A police source said there were reports of at least one dead, according to The Local website.

"The train arrived at the station at high speed. It split in two for an unknown reason. Part of the train continued to roll while the other was left on its side on the platform," the police source said.

Pictures from the scene showed that the train had ploughed into a commuter station, with its carriages partly demolishing a platform.

 

[MichelleFrance]

Very sad news. Sky news have a lot of coverage about it.

 

[ChristopherJ]

SNCF live updates: http://www.infolignes.com/

All traffic from Paris Austerliz cancelled, including the overnight Elipsos sleeper to Spain, SNCF recommends to cancel travel arrangements until further notice.

Disturbances

Derailed INTERCITÉS at Bretigny-sur-Orge.

Traffic is stopped at the start and finish of Paris-Austerlitz from 17:00 until further notice due to a derailed INTERCITÉS.

Help is on hand to provide support for victims.

Note that all Elipsos deleted.

We invite you to postpone your trip.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
SNCF press release, translated.

http://www.sncf.com/fr/content/accident-ferroviaire-bretigny

RAILWAY ACCIDENT BRETIGNY Friday, July 12 at 17:14, the train INTERCITES Paris-Limoges No 3657 derailed train station Brétigny Sur Orge (Essonne), with 385 passengers on board. He had left Paris-Austerlitz at 16.53 and had come to Limoges-Benedictines at 20:05.

The four cars derailed tail, one of them is lying on the road. The three leading cars are on track.

President Guillaume Pepy went there.

SNCF expressed his shock at the accident and mobilizes all its resources to help travelers.

SNCF advises its customers to travel on the line to postpone their journey.

A hotline is being set up to inform the families of the passengers.

An investigation is underway to determine the cause of the derailment.

 

[adc82140]

I travel on this line quite regularly- the pictures are quite disturbing. By this point the trains have built up a considerable speed. It would have been formed of an electric loco with up to a dozen carriages behind it. The RER Ligne C runs parallel at this point, hence the confusion. However SNCF have said that there was no collision, and the train was not reported to be travelling at excess speed (source www.lci.fr)

The four cars derailed tail, one of them is lying on the road.

Slightly misleading google translation- should read more like "the four rear carriages derailed, one of them is lying on the tracks"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There could well be casualties on the station platform.

 

[edwin_m]

BBC website is now speculating about the pointwork on the approach to the station:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23294630

The BBC's Hugh Schofield says that in May, SNCF warned passengers that points work was being carried out in the area, where intercity and commuter lines dovetail.

It is not clear if the earlier points problems are connected with Friday's crash, he says.

Certainly when I saw the pictures it reminded me of Potters Bar. However defective pointwork is not the only reason for derailment at a facing point - for example the pointwork could have exacerbated a minor derailment that had already taken place, or the train could have been approaching at full speed when routed over a low-speed crossover.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I travel on this line quite regularly- the pictures are quite disturbing. By this point the trains have built up a considerable speed. It would have been formed of an electric loco with up to a dozen carriages behind it. The RER Ligne C runs parallel at this point, hence the confusion. However SNCF have said that there was no collision, and the train was not reported to be traveling at excess speed

Normally, would there have been any need for the train in question to have made a reduction in speed when passing through this particular station ?

 

[WestCoast]

Disturbing pictures. RIP to those who have died and a speedy recovery to the injured.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Radio 4 tonight kept referring to the train as an Inter-City train and a commuter train in the same sentence. Are they not advised on how to address such matters ?

 

[CMS]

--- new post below ---
SNCF press release, translated.

http://www.sncf.com/fr/content/accident-ferroviaire-bretigny

I'll translate this a bit more clearly, French is my second language:

"Dramatic Accident At Brétigny

On Friday 12 July at 5.14pm, the Intercités train 3657 from Paris to Limoges derailed at Brétigny-sur-Orge station (in Essonne) with 385 passengers onboard. It had left Paris-Austerlitz at 4.53pm and should have arrived at Limoges-Bénédictins at 8.05pm.

4 carriages derailed, 2 lying on the track, 1 mounted on the platform from the track and 1 has remained upright.

Guillaume Pépy and François Hollande have arrived on the scene.

The SNCF expresses its shock at this accident, and mobilises all methods to help the passengers.

An emergency line (0800 130130) has been set up in order to inform the families of the passengers.

The families of the passengers have also been welcomed at 4 ststaions on the line: Paris-Austerlitz, La Souterraine, Châteauroux and Limoges-Bénédictins.

The Paris to Toulouse via Limoges line, and that of the RER C between Savigny-sur-Orge and St Martin d'Étampes/Dourdan la Forêt are closed to traffic until further notice."

This seems to be a catastrophic event and is being covered heavily amongst the French media, notably i>Télé (CANAL+'s news channel, France's equivalent of Sky News - www.itele.fr/direct ) which has been focusing on this story only since 5.50pm local time. I hope light can be shed on this.

 

[CC 72100]

Radio 4 tonight kept referring to the train as an Inter-City train and a commuter train in the same sentence. Are they not advised on how to address such matters ?

I don't know. Of course it is worth bearing in mind that there isn't really an equivalent over here of the Intercités network, which is medium/ long distance services but on traditional (not high speed) lines, often with LHCS.

 

[theageofthetra]

Some media outlets are reporting that a gang of "people" were caught trying to rob from the victims by pretending to be rescue workers. How are the French media reporting this?

 

[musicman]

Some reports say that the train was diverted onto a line that took them past a different platform than the one normally reserved for high speed trains. This, they say, was due to some on-going track work south of the station.

Other reports commend the driver whose quick action closed the lines in the area thus preventing any subsequent collision.

Always very sad to see fatalities - thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those who died.

 

[richw]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23298374

The train crash south of Paris which left six people dead was caused by a fault in the rail tracks, says the state rail company.

SNCF said a metal bar connecting two rails had become detached close to Bretigny-sur-Orge station.

Earlier, Transport Minister Frederic Cuvillier ruled out human error and praised the train driver for averting a worse accident.

Thirty people were injured in the accident, eight of them seriously.

The train had just left Paris on Friday afternoon and was heading for Limoges when it derailed at Bretigny-sur-Orge.

Giving its initial findings, SNCF management told reporters the connector had worked its way loose and become detached at points 200m from Bretigny station causing the train to derail.

The inquiry is now expected to focus on how the piece of metal had become detached, and checks on these components are to be carried out on the whole of the network.

'Extraordinary reflexes'

Six carriages derailed during the accident at 17:14 (15:14 GMT). The train's third and fourth carriages derailed first and the others followed. One mounted the station platform.

Aside from SNCF, investigations are being conducted by judicial authorities and France's BEA safety agency.

Speaking on RTL radio, Mr Cuvillier said the train driver had reacted quickly to the accident: "Fortunately, the driver of the locomotive had absolutely extraordinary reflexes in that he sounded the alarm immediately, preventing a collision with another train coming in the opposite direction and which would have hit the derailing carriages within seconds. So it is not a human problem."

Local media said a group of people had attempted to steal from the victims shortly after the crash, by pretending to be taking part in the rescue efforts. They reportedly threw stones at emergency workers as they tried to reach passengers.

French transport routes were particularly busy at the time of the crash due to the run-up to a holiday weekend marking Sunday's Bastille Day. SNCF said 385 passengers were on board when the train crashed. The station platforms were crowded.

French President Francois Hollande visited the scene on Friday evening to express his shock at the accident.

He said that the station would be closed for three days while investigations were carried out.

British student Marvin Khareem Wone was on a train on another platform when the carriages of the intercity ploughed into the station.

"The train went off the railway; it just went on the platform and kind of flew in the air for a second and went upside down," he told the BBC.

"The first and the second coach were completely destroyed. I really thought no-one could survive that because it was completely mashed up. Everyone was crying and running everywhere. A woman was crying for her daughter who was still on the train."

'Images of war'

Because of the damage to the station, he said ambulances could not reach the platform and the lift was not working.

Other media reports spoke of passengers being electrocuted and crushed.

"I saw many wounded women children trapped inside," Vianey Kalisa, who was waiting for his train from Bretigny to Paris, told AFP.

Journalist Olivier Ravanello was one of the first at the scene of the crash

"People were screaming. A man had blood on his face. These are images of war," he said.

The train had left Paris-Austerlitz station at 16 :53 local time and was due to arrive at Limoges-Benedictins at 20:05, SNCF said in a statement.

During Saturday, heavy lifting equipment will be used to lift the wreckage of the carriages clear of the rails, says the BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris.

Many people feel it was lucky that the accident was not a lot worse, given the violence of the impact and the fact that a packed train ploughed onto the platform at peak time, our correspondent says

 

[westcoaster]

So is this a greyrigg type crash then!

 

[ChristopherJ]

So is this a greyrigg type crash then!

It more reflects an almost perfect reenactment of Potters Bar.

Train travelling at high speed on a busy trunk mainline, derails due to defective points on approach to a suburban commuter station, train mounts the platform and eventually comes to a halt by wegding itself under the station canopy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to posts on a French rail forum, the speed limit on the track which the train derailed through Brétigny station is 150km/h (90mph), reports suggest the train derailed at 137km/h (85mph).

(http://www.trainsfrancais.com/forum...-15.html?sid=c7dd1794cfa9d3e09423a6e340fc7307)

 

[richw]

According to posts on a French rail forum, the speed limit on the track which the train derailed through Brétigny station is 150km/h (90mph), reports suggest the train derailed at 137km/h (85mph).

(http://www.trainsfrancais.com/forum...-15.html?sid=c7dd1794cfa9d3e09423a6e340fc7307)

This speed is also in the now edited version of the article I quoted above.

Six carriages derailed as the train passed through the station at 137km/h (85mph).

It has also changed SNCF from saying it "was" caused, to "may have been" caused

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Statements given to the media are now suggesting "metal" on the track as a possible cause.

 

[91101]

The information thus far suggests a broken stretcher bar on the points to the north of the station.

 

[edwin_m]

It more reflects an almost perfect reenactment of Potters Bar.

Train travelling at high speed on a busy trunk mainline, derails due to defective points on approach to a suburban commuter station, train mounts the platform and eventually comes to a halt by wegding itself under the station canopy.

Although from what I can gather the cause appears to be a detached fishplate rather than a problem with a stretcher bar.

 

[Gordon]

No question the accident is a replica of Potters Bar.

Train was an Intercité à reservation obligatoire (formerly branded Teoz) Paris - Limoges. In typically useless general journalist speak the BBC described the train as a 'commuter train' simply because it left a capital city at about 5pm. To be fair this was later improved to Inter City in later broadcasts. IN fact the scheduled train has no stops between Paris and Chateauroux (approx 2 hours).

No question this is a near replica of Potters Bar

 

[transmanche]

SNCF have tweeted a close-up photo of the damaged track that appears to be the cause of the crash.

 

[30907]

How on earth did that fishplate get there? SNCF seem to be suggesting it became detached at the "other" end (in which case that's 3 loose bolts and a similarity with Potters Bar)

 

[Crossforth]

How on earth did that fishplate get there? SNCF seem to be suggesting it became detached at the "other" end (in which case that's 3 loose bolts and a similarity with Potters Bar)

Potters Bar was loose bolts on a stretcher bar not a fishplate. However it is not good that three loose bolts were not noticed

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably it was intended to hold together the rail joint in the background. If the first three bolts in the direction of travel (top right to bottom left) were lost then the fishplate could work upwards, be caught by a wheel flange and flipped over into the position shown (though I'm not sure why an earlier wheel flange wouldn't just have knocked it down again first). After this happenend the fishplate would act as a ramp to launch later wheels upwards.

Hard to tell this close but I think it is a switch diamond in a single or double slip. Looking at Bing Maps there is a ladder of some sort of diamonds north of the station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the attributable "explanations" for the crash seem to be coming from SNCF.
If I understand the French Railway setup at the moment isn't RFF the infrastructure owner (ie Network Rail equivalent)?
Why would the "operator" be making statements about the infrastructure?
The safety organisation in France is, like our RAIB, independent of both the operator and infrastructure - they have a fine record of investigating air crashes.
Where are their reports?

 

[transmanche]

If I understand the French Railway setup at the moment isn't RFF the infrastructure owner (ie Network Rail equivalent)? Why would the "operator" be making statements about the infrastructure?

RFF own the infrastructure, but SNCF 'manages' all the the signalling and maintenance. (RFF contracts it all out to SNCF Infra.)

 

[ainsworth74]

All the attributable "explanations" for the crash seem to be coming from SNCF.
If I understand the French Railway setup at the moment isn't RFF the infrastructure owner (ie Network Rail equivalent)?
Why would the "operator" be making statements about the infrastructure?

They've contracted SNCF Infra (the infrastructure division of SNCF) to supply the maintenance and operation of 'their' infrastructure. Whilst RFF and Network Rail look similar on paper in practice they've nothing alike.