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Electrification east of Selby

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snowball

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The Trowse swing bridge is single track. Selby would be the first double-track overhead-electrified opening bridge on the national rail system.

At least one past tram system included a swing bridge: Trafford Bridge between Salford and Stretford (now converted to a fixed bridge).

The Port Salford development, which has started construction, will include a vertical lift bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal. Though mainly a road bridge, it will include space for a possible future Metrolink line, locally reduced to single track.
 
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IanXC

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The Trowse swing bridge is single track. Selby would be the first double-track overhead-electrified opening bridge on the national rail system.

I seem to recall reading that the Selby Swing Bridge had OHLE clearance works done in preparation for ECML electrification, so its been planned previously, and presumably found not to be a problem.
 

northwichcat

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I wouldn't be surprised if they went for 5x 6 car units looking at the current loadings.

Don't forget if they were to go for IEP a 6 car train would be 156m which is the same as the combined length of a 5 car 180 and a 2 car 150. Also a fifth 5 car train would already result in a 25% increase in the number of carriages available.

I've just read that the HT 180s are maintained at the same place as the FGW 180s so if First get the next EC or GW franchise IEP for HT would have the same main maintenance advantage.
 
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D365

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Don't forget if they were to go for IEP a 6 car train would be 156m which is the same as the combined length of a 5 car 180 and a 2 car 150. Also a fifth 5 car train would already result in a 25% increase in the number of carriages available.

I presume that the extra unit you suggest would be for a service increase as an EMU will be more reliable... An IEP carriage, for example, will be 26m long (vs 23m 180/222 and 20m 170/395). Comparing the current DMU and suggested EMU trains, +3m x 5 is a 15m increase, x 4 units is 60m extra... Not much but it adds up. You do any further maths!

I've just read that the HT 180s are maintained at the same place as the FGW 180s so if First get the next EC or GW franchise IEP for HT would have the same main maintenance advantage.

I thought the reasons were that FGW have had experience with Adelante and that there aren't other suitable depots in range. Hull Trains have proposed a depot in the Hull area but I suppose there'd be nothing (technically) to stop them using an EC IEP depot - subcontraction?
 
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northwichcat

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I presume that the extra unit you suggest would be for a service increase as an EMU will be more reliable... An IEP carriage, for example, will be 26m long (vs 23m 180/222 and 20m 170/395). Comparing the current DMU and suggested EMU trains, +3m x 5 is a 15m increase, x 4 units is 60m extra... Not much but it adds up. You do any further maths!

I just suggested 5 trains but I'm not sure what the plans are for the future of Hull Trains, maybe they will want an extra unit but maybe they won't. However, I'm a bit doubtful of them getting an extra train and an extra carriage per set considering the length of carriages may be a bit longer on new trains.

Most modern DMUs are actually 23 point something meters, with the 180s the driving cars are 23m but the others are 23.7m, the 185s are just under 23.8m per carriage, the 170s are 23.6m and of course we don't know the exact length of what IEP carriages will be. In a Network Rail plan for platform lengthening for CP5 stations like those currently served by the Manchester-Huddersfield stopper are set to be lengthened to allow for 4 x 24m carriage trains.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Wasn't the TOC game plan to buy mini-Pendolinos for HT on the back of a WCML order with Alstom (either First or Virgin)?
That was also Alliance's intention for GNWR.
No doubt this has gone on the back burner until the West Coast situation is resolved.

While the Hull electrification proposals look attractive, NR is up to its neck in planning for the DfT committed schemes as it is.
When they have sorted out the plan for TP electrification from Stalybridge to York/Selby maybe things will open up again.
Once there is a contractor on the ground it will become easier to manage its way round the rest of Yorkshire on a rolling plan.
 

northwichcat

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Wasn't the TOC game plan to buy mini-Pendolinos for HT on the back of a WCML order with Alstom (either First or Virgin)?
That was also Alliance's intention for GNWR.
No doubt this has gone on the back burner until the West Coast situation is resolved.

I would assume First West Coast (had it gone ahead) would have let First Hull Trains add on trains to an existing order while GNWR, being a rival, would have had to have placed a separate order at around the same time (to ensure the production line stayed open.)
 

westv

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Electrified or not, I'd just be happy to have a couple of direct Hull to London services that get me into London pre 9am.
 

Erniescooper

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I would assume First West Coast (had it gone ahead) would have let First Hull Trains add on trains to an existing order while GNWR, being a rival, would have had to have placed a separate order at around the same time (to ensure the production line stayed open.)

First West Coast were also offered a unit from CAF in Spain at a very good price as a loss leader into the British market , maybe CAF have now offered these units to Hull .
 

northwichcat

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First West Coast were also offered a unit from CAF in Spain at a very good price as a loss leader into the British market , maybe CAF have now offered these units to Hull .

British versions of what Renfe have ordered recently from CAF would be a very welcome addition to our network.
 

westv

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Read on the local news website that First have submitted their plan with an announcement due before Christmas. If all goes to plan I wonder how long it'll take.
 

kevconnor

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Link? just for interest.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Hull...y-rail-lines/story-20061562-detail/story.html

First Hull Trains' £100m plan to electrify rail lines could get go-ahead by Christmas

PLANS to electrify train lines in and out of Hull could be given the green light by Christmas. A project valued at almost £100m, driven by First Hull Trains, has been submitted to the Department for Transport (DFT) and Network Rail for consideration.

Hull was not included in the Government's £9bn plans announced last year to improve the rail network, including the electrification of 850 miles of track between next year and 2019.

Electrification of lines between Hull, Leeds and York were not among the plans, with the upgrade stopping at Selby.

Will Dunnett, managing director of First Hull Trains, said: "We're playing our part in making this important investment happen.

"We've brought a range of organisations together who share a common interest in delivering electrification for Hull along with all of the socio-economic benefits that it will deliver.

"We will continue to drive this forward over the coming weeks and months in the hope that we can make our collective vision a reality.

"Our aim has been to get the right partners sat around the table and we have been very encouraged by the enthusiasm shown by everyone concerned.

"We have enjoyed some very fruitful meetings with organisations such as the DFT and other key partners who have enthusiastically embraced our proposal."

First Hull Trains revealed the ambitious plans last year and is leading the privately funded scheme to ensure the city is not left behind in the race for faster and more efficient rail services.

It has brought a number of partners together to tackle financing, construction, industry regulatory matters and maintenance.

Network Rail, Amey, Humber LEP, Hull City Council, East Riding Council, DFT, HM Treasury, Cabinet Office and financial institutions have all been part of the proposals.

About £94m will be spent to install 70 miles of electrified Overhead Line Equipment (OHLE) to cover tracks both ways from Hull to Temple Hirst Junction, five miles to the west of Selby.

They also include the procurement of new electric trains.

In addition, more than 100 jobs will be secured in Hull, with the potential of creating more in the future.

First Hull Trains is hoping the procurement process for electric trains could begin in the coming weeks with a formal announcement on the proposals by Christmas.

Lord Haskins, chairman of the Humber LEP, welcomed the news.

"It's a priority to improve rail infrastructure for the region to help realise the potential of the Energy Estuary and attract inward investment," he said. "We are working closely with First Hull Trains and Hull City Council to gain support and funding for the electrification of the Hull to Selby line and we welcome the submission of the business case.

"Electrification of the Hull to Selby line would improve journey times to London as well as to other northern cities on the cross Pennine route and is essential for the region to flourish."

The benefits of electrifying the lines include reliable services with the potential of faster journey times for First Hull Trains' and other operators' customers, greater certainty for First Hull Trains and sustainable improvements for other passenger and freight operating companies.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So whose £100m is it?
Network Rail's I guess, with First (HT) maybe making a contribution and agreeing to pay increased access charges when finished.
I don't quite see where this fits into the CP5 negotiations with ORR.
Because this will change the services for 3 franchises (TP, NT and EC) and their related rolling stock plans, it goes far beyond a simple third-party-funded project.
It's the kind of project that would get announced in George Osborne's autumn statement on December 5 if it gets the go-ahead.
 

westv

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The mentioned Christmas announcement was clearly a little optimistic.
 
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