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Speed Restrictions due to Heat

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Monty

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It's not just this section, various parts of the network have 20mph speed restrictions in place due to the heat. Portsmouth & Southsea I do believe has a restriction also, Matt Taylor signs that part of the world and would know more about it than I. ;)
 
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Only on the railways in the 21st century.........................Quelle surprise, it gets hot in the summer.
 

dk1

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Encountrerd four 20mph heat related speed orders on a return Norwich-Liverpool St yesterday. Some hadnt got the boards in place so more time lost with stop & caution.
 

Slinky

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Seems to happen more since the long welded rails, there doesn't seem to have the expansion gaps.
 

Monty

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Only on the railways in the 21st century.........................Quelle surprise, it gets hot in the summer.

Do change the record for once it's starting to get old :roll:, the speed restrictions are a precaution to avoid any potential nastiness. I haven't noticed too much of a hit to performance, 1-2 minutes maximum and if that's the price to pay for playing it safe then so be it.
 

Wikipedia

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Do change the record for once it's starting to get old :roll:, the speed restrictions are a precaution to avoid any potential nastiness. I haven't noticed too much of a hit to performance, 1-2 minutes maximum and if that's the price to pay for playing it safe then so be it.

I second that! I'd rather be 5 or 10 minutes late than in the dirt!
 

Teaboy1

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Seems to happen more since the long welded rails, there doesn't seem to have the expansion gaps.

I'm pretty sure they do have expansion joints, long ones mind but they are there .... somewhere .... or there should be !!!
Agreed, better late than never !!
 

trentside

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Were these also in place yesterday? I caught a few SWT suburban services yesterday and most seemed to be running a few minutes late, no major problem just never found out why.
 

L&Y Robert

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I'm pretty sure they do have expansion joints, long ones mind but they are there .... somewhere .... or there should be !!!
Agreed, better late than never !!

No they don't. The way it works is that stress builds up in the rail as the temp. rises, but is absorbed by the elasicity of the steel as a strain. The relationship between stress due to temparature rise and resulting strain in the rail is finely calculated to avoid buckling. When welded rail is first laid, de-stressing joints are included (a sort of long splice) to allow initial movement until the track assembly settles down, then they are removed and the joint "Therrmit" welded up. I know because I've read about it, seen the de-stressing joints, and seen 'em removed some time later (on the Bicester-Aynho re-doubling).
 

GB

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CWR does have expansion joints (breather panels) but there are far far fewer of them compared to the inherent gaps found in jointed track.
 

Flamingo

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As far as I understand it (I'm not p-way), when new rails have been laid, they need a few weeks to "bed-in", and expansion happens in this period in hot weather. After this period, p-way have to go back, "stretch" the rail (I don't know how), cut it and re-weld it. After this is done, the rails are less affected by heat, which is why it doesn't affect the whole line, just parts of it hat have had recent work.

Another thing that is relatively recent is that it has been found that painting the rails white at junctions reduces the temperature by a significant amount.

Edited to add: just seen that L&Y Robert had given a more technical explanation between me reading thread and getting around to posting a reply.
 
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YorkshireBear

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Not all speed restriction are to do with the track either. The restrictions on GEML are OHLE related.
 

tsr

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Road surfaces sometimes melt in hot weather.

Indeed. And I have seen it first hand in Surrey on more than one occasion, which is a county SWT happens to operate in - it makes a right mess, slows traffic down and can disfigure road markings... so road and rail are both affected.

As an aside, FGW have also been affected by the hot weather on the North Downs Line over the weekend, I think. Trains were running at caution at the warmest times between the North Camp area and Dorking West, and also in the Reigate area. I could be wrong, but I may have overheard a guard say that they were having to run slower due to the heat. Unfortunately I was very busy so could not investigate further.
 
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Do change the record for once it's starting to get old :roll:, the speed restrictions are a precaution to avoid any potential nastiness. I haven't noticed too much of a hit to performance, 1-2 minutes maximum and if that's the price to pay for playing it safe then so be it.

Take your head out of your fundament and think for a minute before you start the pointed remarks old mate. The point that I'm trying to make is that here we are in the 21st century being exhorted to go green and use the train. Well, that's fine providing that:
it's not too hot because the rails might distort,
it's not too cold because the electrics trains (I live in third rail territory) won't pick up the power,
it's not autumn because there's leaves on the line.
 

GB

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So what is your suggestion to fix all these things and save the railway?
 

ainsworth74

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So what is your suggestion to fix all these things and save the railway?

How about titanium rails? That should be an nice affordable way of fixing our heat issues...

Being a touch more serious it would be nice if Network Rail was a bit more proactive about cutting back trees that are on it's land to prevent them from dropping leaves. Obviously it'd be impossible to prevent all leaves from ending up on the line (unless we put all the track in some sort of tunnel) but it would probably help a bit.

Not that I think the speed restrictions due to heat or leaf fall are the huge issue that they're being made out to be currently.
 

carriageline

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Take your head out of your fundament and think for a minute before you start the pointed remarks old mate. The point that I'm trying to make is that here we are in the 21st century being exhorted to go green and use the train. Well, that's fine providing that:
it's not too hot because the rails might distort,
it's not too cold because the electrics trains (I live in third rail territory) won't pick up the power,
it's not autumn because there's leaves on the line.

How is that different from slippery conditions made from wet weather, icy/snow weather, roads melting, pots holes being caused by adverse weather?

The roads are equally effected by bad/good weather, which can close roads, cause traffic etc. The trains are still running. A few minutes of delays really isn't that bad, in an area of very good train frequency?

Then again, why let truth and facts hold you back from a good anti-rail rant :|
 

michael769

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So what is your suggestion to fix all these things and save the railway?

To instruct our Engineers (and Britain is known to be a world leader in Engineering) to design and specify systems that function effectively and safely throughout the full range of environmental conditions that are experienced for 99% of days in at least 4 out of every 5 years.

The current temperatures while above average are well within the normal range for a British summer, and infrastructure that cannot cope with them is clearly unfit for purpose. To be quite blunt if these restrictions are for safety reasons then one can only conclude that our rail network is unsafe. A safe system does not require extraordinary safety precautions.
 

Tomnick

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Heat speeds over a very small proportion of the network's total mileage does not constitute a major problem, nor does it suggest that the infrastructure is unfit for purpose. Have these actually caused any delays beyond those provided for in engineering allowances?
 

HSTEd

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I would just hope that new lines are designed to be immune to these things.

When we have a network of glorious Shinkansen in all directions everything will be fine.... since thanks to NIMBYs they will all be almost all in tunnel.
Until then..... we have to cope.
I suppose you might be able to fit water sprayers in problem areas or something to keep the local temperature down, but that would use a lot of water.
 

infobleep

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As far as I understand it (I'm not p-way), when new rails have been laid, they need a few weeks to "bed-in", and expansion happens in this period in hot weather. After this period, p-way have to go back, "stretch" the rail (I don't know how), cut it and re-weld it. After this is done, the rails are less affected by heat, which is why it doesn't affect the whole line, just parts of it hat have had recent work.

Another thing that is relatively recent is that it has been found that painting the rails white at junctions reduces the temperature by a significant amount.

Edited to add: just seen that L&Y Robert had given a more technical explanation between me reading thread and getting around to posting a reply.

Interesting posts. As SWT stated today though, they are modernising the infrastructure. I took that to mean that these problems are occuring because the rails around Waterloo are old and need replacing which is what they will do as part of Network Rail and South West Trains joint infrastructure projects.

If that's not the case then perhaps SWT haven't explained the situation so clearly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. And I have seen it first hand in Surrey on more than one occasion, which is a county SWT happens to operate in - it makes a right mess, slows traffic down and can disfigure road markings... so road and rail are both affected.

As an aside, FGW have also been affected by the hot weather on the North Downs Line over the weekend, I think. Trains were running at caution at the warmest times between the North Camp area and Dorking West, and also in the Reigate area. I could be wrong, but I may have overheard a guard say that they were having to run slower due to the heat. Unfortunately I was very busy so could not investigate further.

Actually I was on a train Sunday morning and the guard was called to the cab to check for any objects on the line. We were not massively delayed going into Gatwick because of it though.

The bigger delay for FCC but that's another story altogether. One which highlights the communication break downs that can occur between train companies. I won't go further in this thread with that one, it's off topic.
 

westv

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It's when the weather is hot that I remember and don't miss the evening ovens that run from Liverpool St to Southend.
 
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How is that different from slippery conditions made from wet weather, icy/snow weather, roads melting, pots holes being caused by adverse weather?

The roads are equally effected by bad/good weather, which can close roads, cause traffic etc. The trains are still running. A few minutes of delays really isn't that bad, in an area of very good train frequency?

Then again, why let truth and facts hold you back from a good anti-rail rant :|

Why is it when someone questions something they are immediately branded an anti?
As I stated, there's no point in us being exhorted to use the railway when the system plainly can't cope with weather.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So what is your suggestion to fix all these things and save the railway?

I'm not an engineer, I'm a customer. However it cannot be beyond the wit of someone to lay rails that don't distort in moderate heat, that can design an electrical supply system that continues during cold and frosty weather, that is capable if lopping trackside trees down.
 

Ploughman

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As far as I understand it (I'm not p-way), when new rails have been laid, they need a few weeks to "bed-in", and expansion happens in this period in hot weather. After this period, p-way have to go back, "stretch" the rail (I don't know how), cut it and re-weld it. After this is done, the rails are less affected by heat, which is why it doesn't affect the whole line, just parts of it hat have had recent work.

Another thing that is relatively recent is that it has been found that painting the rails white at junctions reduces the temperature by a significant amount.

Edited to add: just seen that L&Y Robert had given a more technical explanation between me reading thread and getting around to posting a reply.

Having been involved in actually working on CWR I think I might have an inkling as to the process. Here is the quick version.
When a site is deemed ready for CWR by which requisite amount of sleepers per length, ballast suitability and profile, curve radius amongst the main ones.
CWR can be offloaded, in some cases it can be rerailed immediately behind the CWR train.
In most others, however, rail is dropped ready for rerailing at a later date. This has nothing to do with waiting for the rail to acclimatise but more for waiting for the possessions to come round.
The planners have a juggling operation with CWR train availability, Rail availability and when possessions can be granted. Sometimes rail may have to be dropped a year ahead of the works. At other times work may take place on subsequent nights to the raildrop.
The requirements of a stretch of CWR if none in the area are for an Adjustment Switch or Breather to be installed with the splice rails laid to an overlap determined by the rail temperature at the time, then the next 135m of rail is classed as an Anchor length.
The Breather caters for the Expansion / contraction in this Anchor length.
The remainder of the site except for a possible Anchor and Breather at the other end are then stressed. This requires Unclipping a defined length of track, placing on rollers and fitting side supports, determining the actual rail temperature, knowing the actual length and calculating the expansion required for the rail to be at 27 C.
To achieve this expansion Hydraulic tensors are fitted to the unclipped rail at an existing gap or at a gap cut in the rails on the night.
The required length of rail for the expansion is then cut off and the tensors then pull the rails together.
The rollers and side supports are then removed and the rail reclipped.
The welders then weld up the rails.
On completion all equipment removed and they all go home.

All measurements and calculations have to be recorded and submitted to NWR and signed off.

There is a NWR group standard that makes it all very clear.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Amazing to note that mention of spells of hot weather in summer in Britain elicits the same astonishment with certain members of the populace as falls of snow in winter...:D

Is there an equivalent excuse to that which was used some years ago by British Rail, such as "The wrong type of sunshine"...:D
 

pinguini

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This is ridiculous I'm delayed by an hour now just because its 25 degrees out.
 

Silv1983

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Speaking of rail-heat-issues: it appears the white paint isn't good enough at Deal St Junction, Manchester Victoria - and Network Rail I noticed today have resorted to putting those £1 bags of ice from Tesco along the rails. Amusing but bizarre.
 

TDK

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As I stated, there's no point in us being exhorted to use the railway when the system plainly can't cope with weather.

I'm not an engineer, I'm a customer. However it cannot be beyond the wit of someone to lay rails that don't distort in moderate heat, that can design an electrical supply system that continues during cold and frosty weather, that is capable if lopping trackside trees down.

NR will do a cost analysis on the current infrastructure to the amount of days on average that serious delays are caused due to weather. Now if NR think it is worth spending "X" amount of pounds on safeguarding from snow, heat and leaves then it will but currently obviously the delays although they are a major inconvenience to the travelling public do not merit the amount it will cost. For instance, there was a public outcry a couple of years ago when Heathrow was shut due to snow and then the usual argument came up comparing Britain to lets say Canada, why has Heathrow only got say 5 snow ploughs and Anchorage in Alaska (USA) has 100, obvious really, it is in the cost analysis of the Anchorage Airport management to have snow ploughs as it snows there a lot and it don't in Heathrow.

Would you say that NR should spend millions of pounds to alleviate the delays? If so, scrap HS2 that is a complete waste of money and put this money into what we have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Speaking of rail-heat-issues: it appears the white paint isn't good enough at Deal St Junction, Manchester Victoria - and Network Rail I noticed today have resorted to putting those £1 bags of ice from Tesco along the rails. Amusing but bizarre.

The answer could be to run the water jetter as they do during leaf fall and spray the rails with water to cool them, now there is a good idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is ridiculous I'm delayed by an hour now just because its 25 degrees out.

It's not the air temperature that is the issue it is the temperature of the rail itself. Look at F1, air temp 30 track temp 50
 
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