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Routing for Worcester to Gatwick

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pinguini

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I am travelling from Worcester to Gatwick Airport. I want to buy an Off Peak Day Return.

There are two options; "Via Evesham" and "London Evesham". The "Via Evesham" is cheaper, but can I use it on Gatwick Express? It would still be going via Evesham. This would be using an Oyster to make the journey between Paddington and Victoria because there is no cross london transfer on the cheaper one.
 
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PermitToTravel

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I think that this is valid, but I would imagine that you might have some difficulty convincing Gatwick Express conductors of this fact

As this ticket is valid via Evesham using route LONDON, you are permitted to use this ticket on the London Underground, although it will not work the barriers and staff will not believe you
 
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LexyBoy

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There's no onboard staff on GatEx services now is there? Anyway I would expect more problems between Reading and London. Not checked validity but can't think why it wouldn't be permitted, unless there's an 'easement' preventing it.
 

yorkie

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but can I use it on Gatwick Express? It would still be going via Evesham.

There's nothing special about Southern services branded Gatwick Express.

...I would imagine that you might have some difficulty convincing Gatwick Express conductors of this fact
Southern do not employ Guards on the Gatwick Express route (it's DOO).

However they do employ gateline staff, and problems could be encountered at Victoria. Some of them have been observed refusing to honour tickets under the NRCoC.
There's no onboard staff on GatEx services now is there?
Southern employed on-board ticket examiners on this route until ticket barriers were installed at Victoria (about a year ago).
Anyway I would expect more problems between Reading and London. Not checked validity but can't think why it wouldn't be permitted, unless there's an 'easement' preventing it.
FGW gateline staff at Paddington could be an issue. Some of them have been observed refusing to honour tickets under the NRCoC, deny the existence of the Routeing Guide, and making false claims that a passenger is in possession of firearms.
 

soil

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I am travelling from Worcester to Gatwick Airport. I want to buy an Off Peak Day Return.

There are two options; "Via Evesham" and "London Evesham". The "Via Evesham" is cheaper, but can I use it on Gatwick Express? It would still be going via Evesham. This would be using an Oyster to make the journey between Paddington and Victoria because there is no cross london transfer on the cheaper one.

Why not?

The cheaper ticket is not intended to be used via London anyway (they want you to go via Reading, Guildford and Redhill), so if you are going to use it via London (which is valid, but not intended), then you might as well use it on the Gatwick Express as any other train.
 

MarlowDonkey

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I am travelling from Worcester to Gatwick Airport.

It will depend on the connections, but the Reading to Gatwick journey is quoted by NRES as quicker on the direct train. So the Paddington-Victoria Underground leg can be avoided.
 

furlong

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The cheaper ticket is not intended to be used via London

How do you know that and what bearing does this have on the terms of the contract?

PURPOSE OF THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
The National Rail Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the
routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. These routes are
known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to
determine whether the proposed journey is via a "permitted route".

And the Conditions of Carriage:

13
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

Regarding Cross-London transfer, the Routeing Guide clearly states (referring to the routeing code found in the tables in the guide itself which is not what is printed on the ticket):

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the ‘permitted route’ map combinations.

So if you bought such a ticket, you have paid for cross-London transfer regardless of whether or not a Maltese Cross appears.

It goes on to reinforce the point that the Maltese Cross is not the sole arbiter of the inclusion of cross-London transport by providing a particular example:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

This has been the case ever since the Routeing Guide was introduced. By now the principle should be well-established and there would be little excuse if staff with control of ticket barriers on the routes across London were unaware. I did use such a ticket on the underground a few years ago without difficulty (on an "obvious" permitted route).

But that said, personally I would always choose a direct Reading to Gatwick train rather than take the cross-London route.
 
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LexyBoy

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It's clearly not intended to be used via London as there's a different fare in existence for this. Nobody said that it had any bearing on validity. A valid route is not necessarily a trouble-free route unfortunately.
 

soil

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How do you know that and what bearing does this have on the terms of the contract?

It is clear, because the 'via Evesham' routeing exists alongside '✠LONDON EVESHAM' routeings on many/most routes that can reasonable be performed not via London, but doesn't exist at all on routes that require you to go via London. Therefore it is obviously intended to be used 'not via London'.

The intention is not relevant to the terms of the contract, but the terms of the contract are in turn not particularly relevant to the actual experience you will have using the ticket, which is rather capricious.

However my observation was that if you are going to use a ticket other than how it is intended to be used, by going via London, it seems a little odd to then worry about whether you should take a 'Gatwick Express' or not.
 

pinguini

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Okay so im better off avoiding London because im not a person who can argue the routing guide so i dont need any hassle.
 

yorkie

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Okay so im better off avoiding London because im not a person who can argue the routing guide so i dont need any hassle.
If you are prepared to pay the excess fare (£7 in one direction - assuming you don't have a Railcard, or £4.60 if a Railcard is held) then there is no need to 'argue', and you could write a complaint to get your money back, and ask some reassurances that the NRCoC & Routeing Guide will be adhered to in future.

If you are not prepared to pay a £7 excess, and don't want to argue, then it is best to avoid London, despite the fact it's a valid route.
 

soil

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Of course obtaining an excess could in itself be a hassle.
 

maniacmartin

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Of course staff at Victoria or Paddington might not even be aware of a more expensiive + LONDON EVESHAM fare....
 

Muzer

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Why did they word it "via Evesham" then? Why not use the usual thing of "EVESHAM NOT LOND"?
 

furlong

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Why did they word it "via Evesham" then? Why not use the usual thing of "EVESHAM NOT LOND"?

Precisely! If that were the intent, why would it not say so?

Why should anyone infer it is "obviously intended to be used 'not via London'" when it does not obviously state that on the ticket?
 

yorkie

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The problem is that many staff (and almost all LU staff) think that tickets are only valid via London if they have the cross London marker (+) symbol.

As Furlong states above, the rules don't state that tickets are only valid via London if this symbol is present. It's a myth!

It's not a unique situation - there are many other myths and misunderstandings, e.g. "All Off Peak tickets are not valid until 0900/0930" or "All tickets with a 16-25 Railcard are not valid until 1000" we all know they are totally false, but many people believe these are real rules and some are not prepared to look the rules up in the event of a dispute :|
 
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