Drivers: how do you use your horn at a large possession?

[IanXC]

Following a discussion about this, I thought it would be interesting to take a straw poll (of drivers) on how horns are used at large possession sites.

So the kind of situation I'm thinking of is, if you were passing a long possession, perhaps a High Output Track Renewal or some such, with perhaps 4/5 distinct groups of workers along it, how would you use your horn?

I understand from a suitable source that the rule book is not exactly clear on this, so it would be interesting to see what you all think!

Anonymous, private poll for drivers only please!

 

[Rich McLean]

I am sure here, common sense would prevail. If there are two groups close together, then as long as both groups acknowledged, then one blast of the horn if sufficient.

If groups are further spread apart, then one blast per each group would be the norm.

It would depend on the situation at the time, and common sense would have to prevail

However, if I have missed something, I am happy to be corrected

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'll sound it at a distance when I first see orange vests, and then at every group of individuals I see. As a passenger driver on what is mostly a two track railway I rarely (if ever) see large possessions in effect while trains are running though.

 

[Mintona]

^ what he said ^

 

[TDK]

Following a discussion about this, I thought it would be interesting to take a straw poll (of drivers) on how horns are used at large possession sites.

So the kind of situation I'm thinking of is, if you were passing a long possession, perhaps a High Output Track Renewal or some such, with perhaps 4/5 distinct groups of workers along it, how would you use your horn?

I understand from a suitable source that the rule book is not exactly clear on this, so it would be interesting to see what you all think!

Anonymous, private poll for drivers only please!

Are you referring to being in a possesion or passing a possesion on the mainline?

 

[reapz]

at the lookout and at various intervals

 

[TOCDriver]

Lookouts themselves have horns and will blast it in addition to the train horn being sounded. That is usually suffient to alert all members of a gang to the approach of a train. But the driver must never assume that everybody has heard the horns and have got into their positions of safety; and so should be prepared to use the horn again if need be. Personally, If there are more than 2 bunches of workers on the line in front of me, I will use the horn again, in addition to using it on the initial approach. When I get an acknowledgment from the trackside, I will give another short blast to confirm that acknowledgment. better to be safe than sorry

 

[IanXC]

Are you referring to being in a possesion or passing a possesion on the mainline?

Passing a possession - the specific example which promoted the discussion was a possession of the centre 2 lines of a 4 track railway. One of the outer lines had a Lookout Operated Warning System and a reduced limit, but the other line was operating at line speed (it not being adjacent to the line being worked on).

The use of horns was incredibly inconsistent, even amongst drivers of the same TOC/FOC!

 

[TOCDriver]

The use of horns was incredibly inconsistent, even amongst drivers of the same TOC/FOC!

True. There was a big stink about it on the Gatwick Express lines a few years back

 

[ushawk]

True. There was a big stink about it on the Gatwick Express lines a few years back

There was, 1 Network Rail worker was struck by an early morning GatEx train during a possession on 3 out of the 4 lines a couple of years ago.

 

[hello]

suprised 455DRIVER hasnt got something to say on this one

 

[455driver]

suprised 455DRIVER hasnt got something to say on this one

As I have only just logged on after a couple of days I have only just seen this thread so couldnt comment earlier!
But bearing in mind your sarcastic comment (plus this forum is infested with know it alls that have never even been in a train cab but know how I should do my job) I will not be commenting on this for the simple reason is that it is open to conjecture and I will do what I feel correct in the situation!

Or is that a comment!

 

[TOCDriver]

As I have only just logged on after a couple of days I have only just seen this thread so couldnt comment earlier!
But bearing in mind your sarcastic comment (plus this forum is infested with know it alls that have never even been in a train cab but know how I should do my job) I will not be commenting on this for the simple reason is that it is open to conjecture and I will do what I feel correct in the situation!

Or is that a comment!

hahaha classic 455driver

 

[O L Leigh]

I have never ever passed a "line under possession", so the question is moot. However, I have driven lines where there are groups of track workers dispersed at intervals along a certain distance.

I use my own judgement and will sound the horn as I see fit. The precise frequency will depend on the number and distribution of workers, their willingness to acknowledge my warnings, the location and alertness of the lookouts and the attributes of the route (including sight-lines) at the location in question. Sometimes I sound the horn more often than at other times. There is no formula.

O L Leigh

 

[mr_moo]

As a track worker and former COSS I do find use of horns by trains very inconsistant generally.

I've had one near miss where my lookout missed a train but the train didn't stop and never sounded its horn so I can only conclude the train driver didn't see us even when we were very close.

I've had drivers sounds their horn three or four times when I'm clearly away from the track, looking at the train and holding my hand up clearly.

I've worked in a big possession adjacent to open lines a few times and I note that several train drivers seem not to bother sounding their horns at all - I assume they think that it's such a big site that they would simply be sitting on their horn all the time and most staff wouldn't acknowledge anyway as they are not on or near the open line and thus wouldn't care.

That's just an opinion from the orange clad guy though!

 

[#1 driver]

I've worked in a big possession adjacent to open lines a few times and I note that several train drivers seem not to bother sounding their horns at all - I assume they think that it's such a big site that they would simply be sitting on their horn all the time and most staff wouldn't acknowledge anyway as they are not on or near the open line and thus wouldn't care.

Or he didn't want to sound the horn when right next to some track worker !

Each possession is different , no hard and fast rule for me .
I would sound the horn for each group one time but the next time the groups might be quite close together , so one blast on the horn will do for more than one !

And that's an opinion from a driver that works in possessions , so is also orange clad !

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As a track worker and former COSS I do find use of horns by trains very inconsistant generally.

I've had one near miss where my lookout missed a train but the train didn't stop and never sounded its horn so I can only conclude the train driver didn't see us even when we were very close.

I've had drivers sounds their horn three or four times when I'm clearly away from the track, looking at the train and holding my hand up clearly.

I've worked in a big possession adjacent to open lines a few times and I note that several train drivers seem not to bother sounding their horns at all - I assume they think that it's such a big site that they would simply be sitting on their horn all the time and most staff wouldn't acknowledge anyway as they are not on or near the open line and thus wouldn't care.

That's just an opinion from the orange clad guy though!

It swings both ways though. The reaction you get from P-Way staff is every bit as varied. Most of the time you will get the retreat and acknowledgement you want after sounding the horn but sometimes you get nothing at all and there are times on long straight bits of track when people will carry on working in the four foot because they appear to think they have got time to get out of the way before the train arrives. Maybe they have got plenty of time to move and yes, there are places where you can see a mile or so down the line but the thing is I've got to throw the brakes in at that kind of distance if I see somebody in the four foot who isn't moving!

 

[TDK]

As a track worker and former COSS I do find use of horns by trains very inconsistant generally.

I've had one near miss where my lookout missed a train but the train didn't stop and never sounded its horn so I can only conclude the train driver didn't see us even when we were very close.

I've had drivers sounds their horn three or four times when I'm clearly away from the track, looking at the train and holding my hand up clearly.

I've worked in a big possession adjacent to open lines a few times and I note that several train drivers seem not to bother sounding their horns at all - I assume they think that it's such a big site that they would simply be sitting on their horn all the time and most staff wouldn't acknowledge anyway as they are not on or near the open line and thus wouldn't care.

That's just an opinion from the orange clad guy though!

From a drivers perspective those orange suites you wear can be seen on straight track up to 3 miles away and it isn't easy to judge distance. Approaching a work gang on a straight I would the horn from about a mile away and then sound it again when closer so I can actually see the acknowlegement from the workforce. If there is a lookout I sound the horn on sighting the lookout and then once again on sighting the work gang, even if there is a lookout the other side of the possesion I will sound the horn for them also. A driver will sound the horn at everything that looks orange, it is bred into us including spotters wearing orange jumpers or jackets to orange carrier bags and even orange coloured bushes.

On the Crewe Manchester route a few years back a clever farmer donned his sheep with orange Hi - viz vests and the locals put in complaints of the horn being sounded by drivers at all hours