Earliest Opportunity & Young People

[BrownE]

Recently I was contacted by a young person (between 16-17) who had been sent a prosecution notice by an operator.

I'm slightly concerned for this person as they've refused to pay the administration fee 'demanded' by the company for the following reasons
1) The TVM was card-only on departure (they didn't have or have on them a debit card - they had the correct cash for the journey), ticket office was shut, no PERTIS (true)
2) At the interchange station they didn't pass any opportunities to pay (true)
3) They only had 20 minutes to change trains (true)
4) They approached the member of staff onboard the second train (Both trains are DOO and only the second had revenue staff) (unverifiable)

For reference, under caution they provided their correct name and address, mentioned all the above and asked if they were being 'penalty fared'.

So the questions are:
1) How do you think the operator would react given the refusal to pay the admin fee?
2) Why do the operator charge a lower admin fee to young people compared to 18 and over?
3) Is 20 minutes too long to not go to an excess fares window/gateline staff?

Oh and yes, I'm aware I haven't mentioned the operator or the stations involved, the dates or times. This is intentional as I know the prosecution manager for this operator reads the forums.

Edit: Question 3 amended as people were interpreting it differently to how I meant it (which is fair, it was ambiguous).

 

[Rich McLean]

The young person will probably get a court summons, and this case, together with legal representation could be won in court
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
20 minutes does seem reasonable though, but there is no requirement to buy a ticket at the interchange station

 

[ian959]

The important question I guess is whether there was an open ticket office or a TVM that accepts cash at the interchange station? If so, that was an opportunity to buy a ticket that was ignored. 20 minutes would in most reasonable circumstances be long enough to purchase a ticket.

However to answer the three questions:
1. No idea but more than likely failure to pay the admin fee would likely lead to the matter proceeding to prosecution.
2. Probably something to do with the fact they are not adults in the eyes of the law but that is a guess only.
3. It is not the function of an RPI to sell tickets, it is their function to deal with ensuring that passengers have valid tickets and to deal with the appropriately if they don't.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why did the RPI not just sell a ticket given the above, is 20 minutes too long to not go to an excess fares window/gateline staff?

If Inspectors sold tickets to any and every passener who travelled without a ticket, they wouldn't detect any Fare Evasion. And if Fare Evaders were able to buy a ticket on the occasions on which they are detected, then they'd continue to travel without a ticket. I'd even guess that more and more people would travel without a ticket knowing that they would often manage to avoid payment and never be penalised.

. . . . . this case, together with legal representation could be won in court

You may be right, or perhaps it may be dismissed. But what I'd like to know about this prediction is whether it also allows you to see whether it would be the Prosecution or the Defence who 'win' ?

 

[Rich McLean]

If Inspectors sold tickets to any and every passener who travelled without a ticket, they wouldn't detect any Fare Evasion. And if Fare Evaders were able to buy a ticket on the occasions on which they are detected, then they'd continue to travel without a ticket. I'd even guess that more and more people would travel without a ticket knowing that they would often manage to avoid payment and never be penalised.You may be right, or perhaps it may be dismissed. But what I'd like to know about this prediction is whether it also allows you to see whether it would be the Prosecution or the Defence who 'win' ?

I remember reading on here before that if changing trains at an interchange station, you could board the next train without a ticket. However, after further reading, at most stations, 20 mins is ample time to visit a ticket office or gateline staff in order tp buy a ticket for the journey. If it were a 5 min connection, then it wouldn't be classed as an opportunity

After reading it again, it could indeed go either way in court

 

[Fare-Cop]

Recently I was contacted by a young person (between 16-17) who had been sent a prosecution notice by an operator.

I'm slightly concerned for this person as they've refused to pay the administration fee 'demanded' by the company for the following reasons
1) The TVM was card-only on departure (they didn't have or have on them a debit card - they had the correct cash for the journey), ticket office was shut, no PERTIS (true)
2) At the interchange station they didn't pass any opportunities to pay (true)
3) They only had 20 minutes to change trains (true)
4) They approached the member of staff onboard the second train (Both trains are DOO and only the second had revenue staff) (unverifiable)

For reference, under caution they provided their correct name and address, mentioned all the above and asked if they were being 'penalty fared'.

So the questions are:
1) How do you think the operator would react given the refusal to pay the admin fee?
2) Why do the operator charge a lower admin fee to young people compared to 18 and over?
3) Is 20 minutes too long to not go to an excess fares window/gateline staff?

Oh and yes, I'm aware I haven't mentioned the operator or the stations involved, the dates or times. This is intentional as I know the prosecution monkey for this operator reads the forums.

Edit: Question 3 amended as people were interpreting it differently to how I meant it (which is fair, it was ambiguous).

Although there is nothing to prevent it, most TOCs have a policy of avoiding prosecutions in the Youth Courts and there are a few more questions that spring to mind in a case such as this.

A refusal to pay the TOC's 'option to settle' should certainly not prejudice any case (if there is one).

Of course whilst it may be fact, it isn't true to say 'only the second train had revenue staff' is 'unverifiable'. The TOC should be able to say with certainty whether there were revenue staff on the first train too.

At risk of being labelled pedantic, I note that you say the traveller 'did not pass' any opportunities to pay at the interchange point, but I assume that there were available working facilities at that station?

I would suggest that most fair-minded people will consider that a 20 minute connection is ample time to get a ticket in most circumstances.

From your post I suggest it is unlikely to apply, but did this occur in an area where Penalty Fares are the norm?

Has the traveller had any previous ticketing issues or recent warnings, which would have had a bearing on how this was reported?

 

[Haywain]

Oh and yes, I'm aware I haven't mentioned the operator or the stations involved, the dates or times. This is intentional as I know the prosecution monkey for this operator reads the forums.

Which, with the information already provided, only leaves the rest of us wondering.

 

[island]

Except (possibly) at the largest stations, 20 minutes is ample time to go to the excess fares office (or normal booking office) and purchase a ticket, in my opinion. I do not see a very good possibility of avoiding a conviction for this matter on the information available and would very strongly counsel the young person concerned to swallow their pride and pay up.

[By the way, identifying both trains as DOO and stating that there was a card-only TVM cuts the number of possible TOCs to three, by my reckoning, and if I were a betting man I know which one I'd be backing.]

 

[Flamingo]

I can't think of any station I work (including Paddington) where 20 minutes would not be enough time to at least try and buy a ticket.

(And as an aside to the OP, I would hope for the sake of their friend that whoever is deciding on whether to prosecute their friend does not manage to identify them from the details posted, being called a monkey might make them less inclined to drop the case...)

 

[SETCommuter]

There would also be the question of whether the interchange station had the opportunity to purchase a ticket. If there was only a TVM, then that wouldn't sell the ticket for the full journey would it ?

 

[Yew]

Was the first train on time or late? Although there may be time in a 20 min connection to visit a ticket office, if the train was late by 5mins or so, that could be close to the minimum interchange time of the station.

 

[Deerfold]

There would also be the question of whether the interchange station had the opportunity to purchase a ticket. If there was only a TVM, then that wouldn't sell the ticket for the full journey would it ?

So the questions are:
3) Is 20 minutes too long to not go to an excess fares window/gateline staff?

I'm assuming this means there were staff at the interchange station.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Also, while I would agree with what others have said about 20 minutes being enough time normally, quite often if it is busy time of the day (say rush hour) then it is possible that 20 minutes wouldn't have been enough.

 

[island]

Even at an excess fares window?

 

[bnm]

Even at an excess fares window?

On a few occasions I have queued for 20+ minutes at Bristol Temple Meads after coming in from the Severn Beach Line. I'll only queue when I have a 15+ minute window of opportunity. On one of those occasions, when there was still 10 or so people in front of me, I left the queue after 15 minutes to go board my next train.

The situation has improved recently with up to 4 staff next to the gateline at busy times but the process of issuing tickets here is slowed by there not being proper ticket issuing facilities. The staff only have Avantix.

Yesterday I counted 43 people queuing up here to buy tickets after the arrival of both a Severn Beach Line train and one that had just called at Parson Street and Bedminster. 30 seconds for each person and you have your 20+ minutes.

 

[Be3G]

I don't have the requisite knowledge to decipher which TOCs/stations could be being discussed here, but as a general point, I can definitely think of occasions where 20 minutes to get from train to ticket queue to ticket window to train could be pushing it a bit, e.g. at London Victoria on a sunny weekend. As has already been mentioned, a TVM might not have been suitable because (for example) if a return ticket was desired, it wouldn't be able to issue one to/from the true origin. Having said that, in such a situation I'd probably do something similar to bignoseman and try queuing up; if it got too near to the due time of my connection however, I'd leave the queue and catch the train.

 

[34D]

Which, with the information already provided, only leaves the rest of us wondering.

I think it's Northern Rail at Manchester Piccadilly. Happy to be corrected.

20 minutes on paper sounds long enough at first, however let's suppose you arrive on one of the platforms in their teens. To walk to the main concourse could easily be 5 minutes each way. I'd also say that it is reasonable to want to be on the new platform 5 minutes in advance.

Finally, I think for many of us, a need to visit the lavatory or a desire to purchase a coffee would come first from this 20 minutes leisure time.

If the passenger stayed on the same island platform, then they haven't 'walked past' an opportunity to pay. Granted they haven't searched one out either.

 

[island]

I think it's Northern Rail at Manchester Piccadilly. Happy to be corrected.

Looks like you're happy then:

(Both trains are DOO

 

[John @ home]

I think it's Northern Rail at Manchester Piccadilly.

I don't think any Northern Rail services operate without guards, so that would not be consistent with "Both trains are DOO".

the questions are:
1) How do you think the operator would react given the refusal to pay the admin fee?
2) Why do the operator charge a lower admin fee to young people compared to 18 and over?
3) Is 20 minutes too long to not go to an excess fares window/gateline staff?.

I don't feel confident about attempting to answer these questions without knowing the details. If the OP is reluctant to post these on a public forum, then perhaps sending a private message to one of the fares advisors may yield more helpful results.

 

[island]

I don't feel confident about attempting to answer these questions without knowing the details. If the OP is reluctant to post these on a public forum, then perhaps sending a private message to one of the fares advisors may yield more helpful results.

Agreed. Picking random stations and TOCs and trying to find the one loophole station where X might be reasonable is probably not especially useful.

 

[Haywain]

I think it's Northern Rail at Manchester Piccadilly. Happy to be corrected.

20 minutes on paper sounds long enough at first, however let's suppose you arrive on one of the platforms in their teens. To walk to the main concourse could easily be 5 minutes each way. I'd also say that it is reasonable to want to be on the new platform 5 minutes in advance.

Finally, I think for many of us, a need to visit the lavatory or a desire to purchase a coffee would come first from this 20 minutes leisure time.

If the passenger stayed on the same island platform, then they haven't 'walked past' an opportunity to pay. Granted they haven't searched one out either.

As stated, the DOO thing rules out Piccadilly. I'm thinking that it's somewhere with a connection between c2c and Greater Anglia. Wherever it is, for many of us, knowing which station the interchange was made at would help to define whether 20 minutes was long enough. And I don't think 'not passing' an opportunity to pay is enough reason for not paying if it was pretty clear where that opportunity was located.

 

[BrownE]

Well, FGW have now returned the settlement (SDS cost) to this person. I find this extremely disappointing to be honest, Reading is a reasonably large station now and excess fares is very well hidden in the new layout given the direction and platforming of trains taken.

 

[Flamingo]

If the interchange station was Reading, 20 minutes should have been adequate to purchase a ticket. Indeed, if the passenger was coming in off platforms 1 to 6 then they were in the correct side to do so...

I am surprised, however, that a strongly worded complaint has not resulted in the penalty being quashed and the relevant staff having had a "quiet chat".

 

[transmanche]

Reading is a reasonably large station now and excess fares is very well hidden in the new layout given the direction and platforming of trains taken.

I haven't used Reading since the layout changes took place, so can't speak about the positioning of the excess fares window and how visible it may be to interchanging passengers.

But I can say that I have regularly seen 20-30+ people queueing at the excess fares window in Reading.

I think there may even have been two windows at the excess fares office in the old layout - but I only ever saw one of them open.

 

[BrownE]

If the interchange station was Reading

Indeed it was.

20 minutes should have been adequate to purchase a ticket. Indeed, if the passenger was coming in off platforms 1 to 6 then they were in the correct side to do so...

The train in question platformed on 7.

I am surprised, however, that a strongly worded complaint has not resulted in the penalty being quashed and the relevant staff having had a "quiet chat".

As am I.

 

[island]

Well, FGW have now returned the settlement (SDS cost) to this person. I find this extremely disappointing to be honest, Reading is a reasonably large station now and excess fares is very well hidden in the new layout given the direction and platforming of trains taken.

What do you mean by "returned the settlement"? Repaid it and cancelled the case?

 

[34D]

What do you mean by "returned the settlement"? Repaid it and cancelled the case?

I took it to read 'sent back the cheque that the passenger enclosed without banking it

 

[Flamingo]

The train in question platformed on 7.


.

Then it was beside the area where the ticket office is located. Twenty minutes should have been adequate.

As regards the strongly worded complaint not resulting in it being quashed, all I can say is I'm glad somebody seems to have grown a pair (at last).

 

[BrownE]

Then it was beside the area where the ticket office is located. Twenty minutes should have been adequate.

As regards the strongly worded complaint not resulting in it being quashed, all I can say is I'm glad somebody seems to have grown a pair (at last).

Oops, that's my mistake. Checked again and it was 8a, which makes more sense for a London bound train. The next train departed from 14.

 

[pinguini]

I haven't used Reading since the layout changes took place, so can't speak about the positioning of the excess fares window and how visible it may be to interchanging passengers.

But I can say that I have regularly seen 20-30+ people queueing at the excess fares window in Reading.

I think there may even have been two windows at the excess fares office in the old layout - but I only ever saw one of them open.

I had a look whilst I was in Reading today and there are 2 excess fares windows, although just 1 was open. And they were a little out of the way.