Helsby to Ellesmere Port

[eps200]

Where do you get the info that all the rolling stock will be dual-pickup? I was under the impression it would be mixed with some light-rail to access Wirral and Liverpool Waters.

There has always been a desire to get Wrexham Trains (run by Arriva Wales) into the central Liverpool underground section. But a dual-fuel electric/diesel with tanks of diesel in a tunnel precluded that. I see no problem if the fuel tanks are made to nuclear fuel container specifications - crash proof. Having a number of trains made to this specification must be far cheaper than electrifying 27 miles of track. A section of electrified track can be at stations to improve acceleration. Much cheaper and using bio-fuel is an eco advantage.

If such trains are within regs and are ever built, then they would extend Merseyrail onto Wigan via Kirby, to Helsby, etc. The Merseyrail Outer Loop could be reinstated with electrifying it - far cheaper.

Not all out of the gate but it was mentioned in one of the procurement documents they will have provision to add pantographs if needed. It's not too difficult with modern EMUs AFAIK.
The light rail at Wirral waters is a separate thing all together a street car system with interchange to rail. and the Liverpool scheme is not even on the drawing board, the other light rail in the area Mersey tram collapsed years ago.
The loop tunnel means EMUs are the only sensible option unless we have really awkward passenger flows at James street and two changes to reach northern and city lines.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I have just cut this from the May minutes of the Helsby Parish Council.

150th Anniversary of the Helsby to Hooton Line on 1st July. Parliamentary Train will start from Hooton on 6th July to Liverpool Parkway – subject to confirmation. Vintage Bus laid on for return journey – places can be reserved through the North Cheshire Rail Users’ Group. Activities also planned for Helsby & Ellesmere Port Stations;

In addition, planning has been agreed for a Hump on P1 at Helsby (there is a dreadful step up to a train) and a TVM is to be installed. All that is needed now is the reopening of the Halton Curve and 3rd Rail down to Helsby.

 

[pablo]

Also, TVM at Hooton might be a 'good idea'.

Edit: Thanks. Missed that, I'll look next time,

 

[Old Yard Dog]

There is a TVM at Hooton just outside the shop.

Hooton has an unnumbered excursion platform except in the lift where it is labelled as platform 0.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

There is a TVM at Hooton just outside the shop.

Hooton has an unnumbered excursion platform except in the lift where it is labelled as platform 0.

Hooton also has the ticket office inside the shop.

I have just cut this from the May minutes of the Helsby Parish Council.

150th Anniversary of the Helsby to Hooton Line on 1st July. Parliamentary Train will start from Hooton on 6th July to Liverpool Parkway – subject to confirmation. Vintage Bus laid on for return journey – places can be reserved through the North Cheshire Rail Users’ Group. Activities also planned for Helsby & Ellesmere Port Stations;

In addition, planning has been agreed for a Hump on P1 at Helsby (there is a dreadful step up to a train) and a TVM is to be installed. All that is needed now is the reopening of the Halton Curve and 3rd Rail down to Helsby.

Back in this topic, I can't find much info on the net other than the sources you have used. I recall you mentioning this, when it was in it's early stages of planning, and that it is to be operated by a Northern Unit. Do you know if this is still the case? I will endeavour to be on this excursion as it will be an interesting trip what with a DMU at Hooton (Since they stopped sending them there around 20 years ago) and travelling on it on third-rail through to Ellesmere Port and on to Liverpool. Sounds very interesting.

Also, are the tickets for sale yet? I've had a look and correctly thought that it might be a bit early but knowing me I would have probably missed it if they are available.

Thanks for any help regarding my query

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On reading about the low platform problem at Helsby, I am inclined to ask if any other of the former Birkenhead Railway stations that were built in the mid-Victorian era were also subject to the same low platform height when constructed and of the reason why this was thought to be advisable ?

 

[pablo]

If you look carefully at the structure of original platforms and adjacent architecture at, say, Crewe or Chester, you can see how they have been raised at times in the past. They are higher now than Robert Stephenson originally required.
Obviously, peeps could jump a bigger gap in mid-Victorian times without needing a warning about it.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Hooton also has the ticket office inside the shop.



Back in this topic, I can't find much info on the net other than the sources you have used. I recall you mentioning this, when it was in it's early stages of planning, and that it is to be operated by a Northern Unit. Do you know if this is still the case? I will endeavour to be on this excursion as it will be an interesting trip what with a DMU at Hooton (Since they stopped sending them there around 20 years ago) and travelling on it on third-rail through to Ellesmere Port and on to Liverpool. Sounds very interesting.

Also, are the tickets for sale yet? I've had a look and correctly thought that it might be a bit early but knowing me I would have probably missed it if they are available.

Thanks for any help regarding my query

I have only heard of this via the transport rep on the local council. As soon as I have any more info I will post it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On reading about the low platform problem at Helsby, I am inclined to ask if any other of the former Birkenhead Railway stations that were built in the mid-Victorian era were also subject to the same low platform height when constructed and of the reason why this was thought to be advisable ?

Platform one at Helsby is far worse than the other three. Strange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hooton also has the ticket office inside the shop.



Back in this topic, I can't find much info on the net other than the sources you have used. I recall you mentioning this, when it was in it's early stages of planning, and that it is to be operated by a Northern Unit. Do you know if this is still the case? I will endeavour to be on this excursion as it will be an interesting trip what with a DMU at Hooton (Since they stopped sending them there around 20 years ago) and travelling on it on third-rail through to Ellesmere Port and on to Liverpool. Sounds very interesting.

Also, are the tickets for sale yet? I've had a look and correctly thought that it might be a bit early but knowing me I would have probably missed it if they are available.

Thanks for any help regarding my query

There is an unadvertised passenger train 2Z14 running Helsby to Liverpool Lime St on July 6th showing on Real Train Times at 1332. Could this be it?

 

[krus_aragon]

If you look carefully at the structure of original platforms and adjacent architecture at, say, Crewe or Chester, you can see how they have been raised at times in the past. They are higher now than Robert Stephenson originally required.
Obviously, peeps could jump a bigger gap in mid-Victorian times without needing a warning about it.

And given that railways replaced stagecoaches (in the first instance), even a low platform was an improvement over nothing at all.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Hooton also has the ticket office inside the shop.



Back in this topic, I can't find much info on the net other than the sources you have used. I recall you mentioning this, when it was in it's early stages of planning, and that it is to be operated by a Northern Unit. Do you know if this is still the case? I will endeavour to be on this excursion as it will be an interesting trip what with a DMU at Hooton (Since they stopped sending them there around 20 years ago) and travelling on it on third-rail through to Ellesmere Port and on to Liverpool. Sounds very interesting.

Also, are the tickets for sale yet? I've had a look and correctly thought that it might be a bit early but knowing me I would have probably missed it if they are available.

Thanks for any help regarding my query

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm
This excellent website contains an article on the next Helsby to Liverpool trip via the Halton Curve.

 

[Bevan Price]

There has always been a desire to get Wrexham Trains (run by Arriva Wales) into the central Liverpool underground section. But a dual-fuel electric/diesel with tanks of diesel in a tunnel precluded that. I see no problem if the fuel tanks are made to nuclear fuel container specifications - crash proof. Having a number of trains made to this specification must be far cheaper than electrifying 27 miles of track. A section of electrified track can be at stations to improve acceleration. Much cheaper and using bio-fuel is an eco advantage.
.

There is no ban on diesel trains under the Mersey. MPV's go there daily in the leaf clearance season, although I think they normally reverse at James Street rather than go round the loop. The main objection to more frequent use of diesels would probably be pollution of station atmosheres by diesel fumes. The line was electrified because smoke pollution by steam locos made underground station environments very unpleasant and thus discouraged use by passengers.

 

[D1009]

The line was electrified because smoke pollution by steam locos made underground station environments very unpleasant and thus discouraged use by passengers.

That was in 1903.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm
This excellent website contains an article on the next Helsby to Liverpool trip via the Halton Curve.

I can't seem to find it, can you provide a link please?

 

[edwin_m]

In steam days the Mersey Railway ran in double track tunnel to Liverpool Central. The single-track Loop tunnels were added in the 1970s.

There's no ban on diesel engines in tunnels for engineering plant (remembering the grinder than ran away on the Northern Line in London - which the accident report says could be used in tunnels subject to special ventilation arrangements) but I don't think anywhere would allow use in a "tube" tunnel while stations are open to the public.

 

[pablo]

No TVM at Hooton and that's fact.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I can't seem to find it, can you provide a link please?

It is about halfway through the news articles.
I have cut and pasted it below.

Hooton to Helsby 150 - Saturday 6 July
Northern Rail,* in conjunction with Cheshire West and Cheshire Council (CWAC) and the North Cheshire Rail Users Group (NCRUG) will be operating a special train on Saturday 6 July 2013 from Liverpool Lime Street (dep. 09:42) to Hooton (arr 11:09) with a return train pair to Helsby (dep. Hooton 11:37), returning from Hooton (dep. 13.07) via Helsby and the Halton Curve to Liverpool Lime Street, arriving at 14.07. Fares will be in the region of £10 for the day; we understand they will be on sale on the train.

A vintage bus service will also operate between Helsby and Ellesmere Port in the afternoon, for which donations will be sought. Travel on the special will give chance to traverse some 'rare' track A miniature steam engine will be on display at Helsby and suitable celebrations to celebrate 150 years of operation at various stations along the line. Contact johnhobbs@aol.com for further information. Normal booked services on the Halton Curve (one train a week!)* and Helsby to Ellesmere Port, such as they are, will also run on this day.

 

[lestiverton]

Glad you like Frodsham, it is a nice small town. The railway station has quite recently been renovated, its not being put back into passenger use, but the "for sale" sign has gone, rumours are a tea room maybe.

I shall take more trips on the Helsby-E.Port line this year (afternoons), I always enjoy the run, although sometimes, I get off at one of the intermediate stops just for a change !

This year is 150 years of rail between Hooton and Helsby, there are plans of a special train on Saturday 6 July running from Hooton via Ellesmere Port and Helsby to Liverpool South Parkway over Halton Curve. North Cheshire Rail Users Group are planning this.

Hi - I'm looking for the latest information on this proposed train journey. I gather it's now running on 1 July. Is there a web site specifically for this event, please?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Is there a source thats it's running on the 1st of July? I am looking for more info as well and I would be grateful as I need to know soon.

 

[merlodlliw]

here is the link to their website http://www.ncrug.chrisellams.co.uk/index.html

I am sure they will tell you chapter & verse.


Bob

 

[Cheshire Rover]

More from the North Wales Coast website today...

More on Hooton to Helsby 150

As mentioned in the last issue (full press release on our Calendar page) on 6 July a special train runs at 09:42 from Liverpool Lime Street, on Saturday 6 July to Hooton (11:09); with a return train pair to Helsby dep Hooton (11:37), returning from Hooton (13:07) via Helsby and Halton Curve to Liverpool Lime Street (14:07), as well as vintage bus service between Helsby and Ellesmere Port in the afternoon; from Helsby at 13:35; 14:05; 15:00; 16:30; and from Ellesmere Port at 13:00; 13:25; 14:15; 14:45.

An interesting feature of this event is the opportunity to travel over some short 'passenger services over unusual lines' as well as the Halton Curve from Frodsham Junction which normally sees just one train a week. John Hobbs, of the organising team, provides the following information.

Some 'rare track' at Helsby is the line in the Hooton direction, from Warrington, as normaly only the first train to Ellesmere Port in the morning allows travel over the junction; this Monday-Friday train uses Platform 3. You need to get up very early to catch it, as it leaves Warrington Bank Quay at 05:49 and Helsby at 06:03. The other direction across the junction is easier as the last train in the afternoon, 16:34 Ellesmere Port to Warrington, runs that way. All other Helsby to Ellesmere Port trains depart from Platform 4 at Helsby, and use the facing crossover at the Hooton end of the station.

At Ellesmere Port, no booked passenger trains travel through the station as electric trains from Liverpool and the meagre service from Helsby both terminate there. Unlike the similar arrangements at Kirkby and Ormskirk, however, a connection still exists and the special will use it. The line to Helsby is entirely mechanically signalled throughout, and uses facing crossovers at the commencement of every journey accept one.

We encourage readers to participate in this interesting event. We understand that £10 tickets will be sold on the train. The above information is provisional, we will publish news of any changes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The annual run over the Halton Curve arranged by the North Cheshire Rail Users Group is now advertised on their website.
http://www.ncrug.chrisellams.co.uk/

Looks like a good day out. Seems to an agreement between Northern, Merseyrail and ATW.

 

[frodshamfella]

Have used Helsby-Ellesmere Port Line on Thursday afternoon just gone, again a few passengers, so I wasnt the only one who was using the train purely for curiosity reasons, the others seemed like they were using the train for a reason, one had a bike anyway. No ticket selling went on by staff on trains I was on.

 

[merlodlliw]

Have used Helsby-Ellesmere Port Line on Thursday afternoon just gone, again a few passengers, so I wasnt the only one who was using the train purely for curiosity reasons, the others seemed like they were using the train for a reason, one had a bike anyway. No ticket selling went on by staff on trains I was on.

No ticket selling, no pax count then.

 

[frodshamfella]

Exactly, didnt get feeling the guard was interested. When I got to Ellesmere Port, I went to platform machine to buy a ticket as was pretty sure I wouldnt have been asked on the return, and i was right.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Seen this on the Pride in the Port Facebook page....

HOOTON TO HELSBY RAILWAY 150 YEARS OLD – SATURDAY 6th July 2013

The railway between Hooton and Helsby is 150 years old on 1st July 2013 and to celebrate 150 years of rail Merseyrail, Northern Rail, Arriva Trains Wales together with Cheshire West & Chester Council, volunteers from Little Sutton, Ellesmere Port Stations , and Helsby & Frodsham Stations (North Cheshire Rail Users Group ) are organizing a special train.

The train will run on Saturday 6th July leaving Liverpool Lime Street at 9.42 and is an opportunity to travel the whole line from Hooton to Helsby on one train and also to cross the Halton Curve.

At Ellesmere Port Station between 12 noon and 1pm the Mersey Morris Men will be performing and the I Travel Smart Team will be on hand to encourage people to use public transport. A vintage bus service and a new Stagecoach bus will also operate between Helsby and Ellesmere Port in the afternoon; from Helsby at 13.35; 14.05; 15.00; 16.30; and from Ellesmere Port at 13.00; 13.25; 14.15; 14.45 (times are provisional donation of £5 accepted).

For one day only there is FREE ENTRY to the National Waterways Museum on production of a 6th July Hooton Helsby Day Ranger ticket. A full visit is usually 3-4 hours and entrance prices are normally £6.50, £5.50 or £4.50 (but for this you can get a year’s free admission) so why not enjoy a short free visit on the 6th July and then buy an annual pass and come back to many of the museum events over the next 12 months.

Tickets for the special train - Hooton Helsby 150 Day Ranger tickets - can be purchased at any staffed Northern or Merseyrail station from 1st July. Cost £10 for adults and £5 for children.

 

[L+Y]

Surely the better solution for improvements on this line would be (as a first step) to extend the DMU service to Birkenhead Central, perhaps running fast from Ellesmere Port-Hooton-Birkenhead? As a viable endpoint, how about Warrington Bank Quay? Have this train run at a regular frequency: say hourly in the peaks, and every two hours thereafter, and you'd probably see a serious improvement.

The difficulty is getting access for a Northern Rail train to run along Merseyrail tracks, and pathing it in between regular EMUs, but I'm sure it could be done, especially if the DMU ran fast: on the Ormskirk line prior to severing BR coped with a 20 minute frequency of EMUs, interspersed with semi-fast DMUs, expresses and the odd freight, after all. If that could be done in 1969, I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to run a Birkenhead-Helsby semi-fast DMU in 2013!

Really, I think Merseyrail should be aiming for battery-fitted EMUs as replacement rolling stock. This would allow for Ormskirk-Preston, Ellesmere-Helsby, Kirkby-Wigan, the North Mersey Branch and others to be added to the network without the cost of electrification. I believe someone is experimenting with fitting an EMU with batteries at present: let's hope it bears fruit!

 

[pablo]

Where would a DMU reverse at Bh Central? Before electrification they reversed at Rock Ferry but that is equally implausible.
There are EMUs every 7 to 8 minutes in the peak between Ha Sq and Hooton. What do you need another service on top of that for? So reversal at Hooton? Why? EP is every 15 minutes, so you reverse at EP. Back to where we started. :cry:

 

[vjm1975]

Seen this on the Pride in the Port Facebook page....

Originally Posted by Cllr Justin Madders

Tickets for the special train - Hooton Helsby 150 Day Ranger tickets - can be purchased at any staffed Northern or Merseyrail station from 1st July. Cost £10 for adults and £5 for children.

In addition to the above posted information, "First Class" posted an the Merseyside Dennis Dart website, the following information regarding validity of the ticket:-

Fares & Ticketing
Special train ticket information:

The price is £10 adult / £5 child. No railcard or child discounts. Valid for travel on Saturday 6 July 2013 only. Available to purchase from any Northern or Merseyrail staffed station from Monday 1 July 2013 – ask for a Helsby Hooton 150 Day Ranger.

Valid for travel as follows:

Northern Rail:

• Any service between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway / Warrington Bank Quay including intermediate stations
• 0942 Liverpool Lime Street – Hooton via Warrington Bank Quay special
• 1137 Hooton – Helsby special
• 1210 Helsby – Hooton special
• 1307 Hooton – Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn (mainline) special

Merseyrail Electrics:

• Any service between Ellesmere Port / Hooton and Liverpool City Centre including intermediate stations
• Any service between Liverpool City Centre stations and Liverpool South Parkway including intermediate stations

I do hope gateline staff and RPIs etc are informed of said ticket, given that it can be used to get to Liverpool to catch the special train

 

[pjnathanail]

I used this train yesterday as I was in the Liverpool area, and I was the only one on the outward (1534 ex Ellesmere Port) however two got on at Helsby and one at Stanlow (with a bike!). The guard checked tickets and gave us the full announcement service, including arrival time at destination, reminders about tickets and instructions not to forget luggage. A twenty minute round trip, it was a nice little ride.

The price is £10 adult / £5 child. No railcard or child discounts.

That makes sense (not)!

 

[eps200]

Where would a DMU reverse at Bh Central? Before electrification they reversed at Rock Ferry but that is equally implausible.
There are EMUs every 7 to 8 minutes in the peak between Ha Sq and Hooton. What do you need another service on top of that for? So reversal at Hooton? Why? EP is every 15 minutes, so you reverse at EP. Back to where we started. :cry:

Stopping it at hooton would give sensible connections to the Liverpool Chester train. But really that section should never have been split, should be all electric or all diesel.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Tickets are on sale for this excursion from today. They are being sold at any staffed Merseyrail and Northern rail station. Ask for a Helsby Hooton 150 Day Ranger. Prices are £10 adult, £5 Child. No railcards. I brought mine at Port Sunlight today on the way home from school. In the normal format of a rail ranger, although it says rail rover on it. For any more info, go onto theNCRUG site and click on the image of a ticket in the top right.