National Express West Midlands

[F Great Eastern]

Having used these last week is there any worse bus company in the UK? I must admit I thought they would be bad (bad experiences with National Express wherever I have been), but they really took the biscuits.

In just three days I managed to see
- Drivers going the wrong way
- A different driver refusing to acknowledge the day ticket exists.
- Lack of punctuality, too busy talking on their phone or smoking that they leave the terminus 5 minutes+ late, one driver 10 minutes late as he was talking about his plans for the pub.
-Same driver then refuses to stop at some stops for passengers who rang the bell due to 'running late' and needing to make up time. Told the OAP you'd just have to wait half an hour.
- Driver smoking in the doorway of the bus leaving the whole bus stinking.
- Absloutely hideous legroom, worst I've ever seen on some of their Scania Omnicity vehicles, Even someone thin and around 5ft4 had trouble, let alone me being considerably taller.
- Drivers who simply don't check tickets at terminus, too busy having a fag outside and wave everyone on regardless of if they pay or have a ticket.
- Incorrectly set destination displays (wrong direction)
- Buses that simply don't turn up.

The most annoying thing that confused me, and others who even spoke with Brum accents was the E suffixed routes that have different routing. Since for example with the 66, there is no mention of the E variation on timetables, at the stops, on the National Express website or on the real time info. Whats more, they show up as a standard 66 on real time despite the fact they are a 66E. I read on wikipedia that the 66E terminates at Star City, yet the destination dis plays for all of the E routes seems to show the terminus as the final destination that the original non E routes do, despite the fact the bus does not go there.

All I can say is it wasn't a good experience and they're easily the most unfriendly bus operator I've come across, they couldn't care less the attitude came across, and that happens all too often with NX.

 

[winston270twm]

Having used these last week is there any worse bus company in the UK? I must admit I thought they would be bad (bad experiences with National Express wherever I have been), but they really took the biscuits.

In just three days I managed to see
- Drivers going the wrong way
- A different driver refusing to acknowledge the day ticket exists.
- Lack of punctuality, too busy talking on their phone or smoking that they leave the terminus 5 minutes+ late, one driver 10 minutes late as he was talking about his plans for the pub.
-Same driver then refuses to stop at some stops for passengers who rang the bell due to 'running late' and needing to make up time. Told the OAP you'd just have to wait half an hour.
- Driver smoking in the doorway of the bus leaving the whole bus stinking.
- Absloutely hideous legroom, worst I've ever seen on some of their Scania Omnicity vehicles, Even someone thin and around 5ft4 had trouble, let alone me being considerably taller.
- Drivers who simply don't check tickets at terminus, too busy having a fag outside and wave everyone on regardless of if they pay or have a ticket.
- Incorrectly set destination displays (wrong direction)
- Buses that simply don't turn up.

The most annoying thing that confused me, and others who even spoke with Brum accents was the E suffixed routes that have different routing. Since for example with the 66, there is no mention of the E variation on timetables, at the stops, on the National Express website or on the real time info. Whats more, they show up as a standard 66 on real time despite the fact they are a 66E. I read on wikipedia that the 66E terminates at Star City, yet the destination dis plays for all of the E routes seems to show the terminus as the final destination that the original non E routes do, despite the fact the bus does not go there.

All I can say is it wasn't a good experience and they're easily the most unfriendly bus operator I've come across, they couldn't care less the attitude came across, and that happens all too often with NX.

There is no 66E as such. It's either the 66 or 66A which do take different routes. E is typically used for a short working or as an extra in the Midlands

http://nxbus.co.uk/search/west-midlands/?site[search]=66&show[routes]=1&site[submit]=SUBMIT

Centro are responsible for timetables at bus stops, Centro are next to useless....

The Scania are Omnilinks rather than Omnicity's, Arriva Midlands at Tamworth have 12 (3800-3812) which seat 45, where the NXWM examples seat 43

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is no 66E as such. It's either the 66 or 66A which do take different routes. E is typically used for a short working or as an extra in the Midlands

This is my point.

Indeed, there was no mention of the 66E on the National Express website. Just the normal 66 and 66A, however when the 66A finishes and the 66 goes to once an hour in the evening, around half of the 66's were showing up as a 66E's on their displays bang on when the 66 was due. The destination display showed the same final destination as a normal 66, despite the fact it was a short working, leading to an annoyance when one passenger was very annoyed when the bus terminated at Star City rather than Sutton Colfield as advertised on the display. The driver then explained that he was a 66E.

Check out this wikipedia page from January
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...West_Midlands_routes_66_&_66A&oldid=534858196

It suggests that the 66 is a 66E on alternative hours, however this was never reflected in the on street, real time, or National Express timetables, there was no mention of the 66E anywhere, even though they were showing up, very confusing that a bus number appears that doesn't exist according to the operator.

Centro are responsible for timetables at bus stops, Centro are next to useless....

I must admit they didn't impress me either, however that doesn't excuse for National Expresses vehicles having one route number and destination, and their website having another.

The Scania are Omnilinks rather than Omnicity's, Arriva Midlands at Tamworth have 12 (3800-3812) which seat 45, where the NXWM examples seat 43

[/quote]

They were still very tight in my book, there are a couple of rows of seats which are near impossible to get your legs in even if you are very short. As said most cramped buses I've been on. It may not be ALL of the rows of seats, but some of them certainly are tight. And like all scania bodies, they're cheap, prone to rattles and of very poor build quality.

 

[Ivo]

Have a look through this thread - NXWM don't even scratch the surface of "bad"...

 

[dvboy]

NXWM do have a generally poor reputation when it comes to customer service, cleanliness and punctuality, however because they are essentially a monopoly on most routes, most passengers don't know any different so it allows the problems to continue.

If a route with high frequency is suffering delays, they may turn around a bus early (hence the E), but the destination should be reflected. There are E services timetabled on some routes, but they can ad hoc them in too (happens often on the 11A/C)

I wouldn't say Centro were useless. Some of the timetables at bus stops are confusing (same route with two timetables depending on time of day, or strange combined timetables of completely different routes), but the thing that lets them down is their slow progress with any infrastructure.

 

[Eagle]

I wouldn't say Centro were useless. Some of the timetables at bus stops are confusing (same route with two timetables depending on time of day, or strange combined timetables of completely different routes), but the thing that lets them down is their slow progress with any infrastructure.

I've always wondered if the Centro timetables were produced automatically by a computer, because they certainly have that look about them. Particularly ones where one timetable will be festooned with five or six coloured footnotes, sometimes three or four of them applying to every time, making the whole thing basically illegible.

 

[winston270twm]

This is my point.

Indeed, there was no mention of the 66E on the National Express website. Just the normal 66 and 66A, however when the 66A finishes and the 66 goes to once an hour in the evening, around half of the 66's were showing up as a 66E's on their displays bang on when the 66 was due. The destination display showed the same final destination as a normal 66, despite the fact it was a short working, leading to an annoyance when one passenger was very annoyed when the bus terminated at Star City rather than Sutton Colfield as advertised on the display. The driver then explained that he was a 66E.

Check out this wikipedia page from January
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...West_Midlands_routes_66_&_66A&oldid=534858196

It suggests that the 66 is a 66E on alternative hours, however this was never reflected in the on street, real time, or National Express timetables, there was no mention of the 66E anywhere, even though they were showing up, very confusing that a bus number appears that doesn't exist according to the operator.



I must admit they didn't impress me either, however that doesn't excuse for National Expresses vehicles having one route number and destination, and their website having another.

They were still very tight in my book, there are a couple of rows of seats which are near impossible to get your legs in even if you are very short. As said most cramped buses I've been on. It may not be ALL of the rows of seats, but some of them certainly are tight. And like all scania bodies, they're cheap, prone to rattles and of very poor build quality.[/QUOTE]

I'm not certain on regular 66E's, I'm not that familiar with that particular route. Typically, if a route is a short working it normally displays the correct intermediate destination where it intends to terminate rather than the final destination. E is more often than not used for short workings possibly turning short to get back on time or terminating to go back to the depot. In the past E has been used on full length workings as a means of increasing the frequency against a competitor

The back rows of seats are a bit high on those Omnilinks, thankfully the three supply deal with Scania was another one of Richard Bowker's bright ideas. These days under Dean Finch the standard single decker now appears to be the B7RLE/Wright, ADL E400's for double deckers & E200's for midi's. Hopefully that will stay the same once once Euro 6 comes in to force
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NXWM do have a generally poor reputation when it comes to customer service, cleanliness and punctuality, however because they are essentially a monopoly on most routes, most passengers don't know any different so it allows the problems to continue.

If a route with high frequency is suffering delays, they may turn around a bus early (hence the E), but the destination should be reflected. There are E services timetabled on some routes, but they can ad hoc them in too (happens often on the 11A/C)

I wouldn't say Centro were useless. Some of the timetables at bus stops are confusing (same route with two timetables depending on time of day, or strange combined timetables of completely different routes), but the thing that lets them down is their slow progress with any infrastructure.

It's fair to say that the cleanliness & vehicle presentation of the existing fleet has left a lot to be desired, indeed there are still TWM liveried buses going around with dirty threadbare seats. Unfortunately again during the Richard Bowker term NX got a bit complacent in the West Midlands, the majority of new vehicle investment was going in to Travel London etc and it has well & truly bit them on the bum in terms of falling profits. WMT/TWM/NXWM was once one of the most profitable bus companies in Britain, Dean Finch seems to be investing heavily in new vehicles for UK bus, including refreshing the existing fleet, but it’s going to take time to catch up from years of neglect. Dean Finch seems intent on building a quality operation, significantly improving profit margins, lowering the average age of the fleet to single figure via buying brand new buses rather than extending vehicle lives through refurbishment. He has delivered so far, and I expect him to keep to his word with these promises.....

 

[dvboy]

I've always wondered if the Centro timetables were produced automatically by a computer, because they certainly have that look about them. Particularly ones where one timetable will be festooned with five or six coloured footnotes, sometimes three or four of them applying to every time, making the whole thing basically illegible.

Of course they are, the problem is they aren't proof-read.

 

[Ivo]

I've always wondered if the Centro timetables were produced automatically by a computer, because they certainly have that look about them. Particularly ones where one timetable will be festooned with five or six coloured footnotes, sometimes three or four of them applying to every time, making the whole thing basically illegible.

Of course they are, the problem is they aren't proof-read.

It's a problem that is increasingly affecting the entire industry. We are getting to the point where a typical on-street timetable might have the following as a code list:

[A] Terminates at Evergreen Terrace
[B] Terminates at Evergreen Terrace, Stop 742
[C] Continues to Evergreen Terrace
[D] Continues to Evergreen Terrace, Stop 742

...and of this list, only [B] and [C] might actually be used :roll:

This is usually due to councils and others dependiong solely on Traveline data, which is itself not only no proof-read*, it is also done using Traveline's own bus stop list - which is littered with poor choices, countless (often unannotated) acronyms and errors.

* Some operators employ people to proof-read Traveline data before timetables become valid. That said, the only one I know of is First - and then only because they pay me to do it.

 

[Eagle]

Whereas the posters at bus stops maintained by Warwickshire CC I'm pretty certain are done by hand (due to the inconsistencies in how notes and things are shown, as well as the iffy typesetting).

 

[winston270twm]

Of course they are, the problem is they aren't proof-read.

I'd agree with that, there are often fundamental mistakes

 

[Ivo]

Problems in the Midlands huh?

Have a look at this: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1488183&postcount=1018

This shows just how flawed the Traveline model is, and why authorities shouldn't rely on it - or should at least double-check what they are given! :roll:

 

[Deerfold]

This is usually due to councils and others dependiong solely on Traveline data, which is itself not only no proof-read*, it is also done using Traveline's own bus stop list - which is littered with poor choices, countless (often unannotated) acronyms and errors.

* should say "not proof read".



More seriously, my local stop into town is littered with notes about things buses have done miles before getting there.

And has buses on exactly the same route run by two subsidiaries of the same company (so accepting and issueing all the same tickets) listed in separate tables...

 

[Ivo]

That'll teach me to not proof read my proof-reading

 

[W-on-Sea]

Thames Travel, who are, mostly, a fairly decent operator (and are clearly improving) seem to make a complete hash of their timetables.

Utter lack of attention to detail or proofreading means that several of the published ones (or the very different format used at some busstops) are not just misleading, but completely wrong - missing out certain journeys, missing out calling points that differentiate one route from another: very basic errors that do nothing to promote bus usage in rural areas.

 

[SuffolkRaider]

Well guys if it's midget buses for microbes you require then look no further than First Yarmouth/Lowestoft lol Caetano Nimbus 29 seaters replacing Dart 41 seater/2 buggy space We are just so incredulous as to why replace S reg metal with 52 plate and no space .So I can sympathise with you all up there and when I am visiting next shall avoid NXWM like the plague thanks for the advice

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Its not NXWM you need to avoid, its Diamond (part of Rotala)

 

[dvboy]

Ive never had a problem with Diamond, theyre certainly more desirable on the late evening 255s than NX's 256.

 

[winston270twm]

Ive never had a problem with Diamond, theyre certainly more desirable on the late evening 255s than NX's 256.

Most of NXWM's services seem to attract to scumbags, the independents seem to get away without carrying many and obviously don't get the number of incidents that NX have to deal with

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Ive never had a problem with Diamond, theyre certainly more desirable on the late evening 255s than NX's 256.

You obviously don't catch the 4/226 do you! They make some of the PIaholics look a respectable operator

 

[dvboy]

Most of NXWM's services seem to attract to scumbags, the independents seem to get away without carrying many and obviously don't get the number of incidents that NX have to deal with

Well it's cheaper to have a single operator day/season ticket than a multi-operator one

 

[Ivo]

Thames Travel, who are, mostly, a fairly decent operator (and are clearly improving) seem to make a complete hash of their timetables.

Utter lack of attention to detail or proofreading means that several of the published ones (or the very different format used at some busstops) are not just misleading, but completely wrong - missing out certain journeys, missing out calling points that differentiate one route from another: very basic errors that do nothing to promote bus usage in rural areas.

This is exactly what happens when Traveline take control of everything.

To give an example, the 178 around here is changing (again!) next month, and as such First submitted the new timetables to Traveline ready to upload. They then asked me to proof read them...

... only to find that the Sunday service apparently finishes three hours early!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its not NXWM you need to avoid, its Diamond (part of Rotala)

A very accurate statement

Ive never had a problem with Diamond, theyre certainly more desirable on the late evening 255s than NX's 256.

I am quite simply amazed by this. Rotala are pretty much useless...

 

[F Great Eastern]

NXWM do have a generally poor reputation when it comes to customer service, cleanliness and punctuality, however because they are essentially a monopoly on most routes, most passengers don't know any different so it allows the problems to continue.

Monopolies are bad anywhere and generate this kind of behavior in more than National Express, so I'm not going to say they are the only ones who do it, but the fact is less competition = no incentive to improve, since the majority of the people will take the bus anyway since they have not other choice.

If a route with high frequency is suffering delays, they may turn around a bus early (hence the E), but the destination should be reflected. There are E services timetabled on some routes, but they can ad hoc them in too (happens often on the 11A/C)

These were not ad-hoc replacements at all. These were buses who were at the stop (city center terminus), for 10 minutes before departing, and departed right on the time that the non E bus was supposed to depart. To which the driver said when I asked that this is the 66 for example, not the 66E, and he said that 66E means evening, despite the fact that according to the then National Express timetable, only the 66 and 66a existed, but the driver said it's in the working timetable and that is what they go on.

I'm not certain on regular 66E's, I'm not that familiar with that particular route. Typically, if a route is a short working it normally displays the correct intermediate destination where it intends to terminate rather than the final destination. E is more often than not used for short workings possibly turning short to get back on time or terminating to go back to the depot. In the past E has been used on full length workings as a means of increasing the frequency against a competitor.

See above - the E buses were turning up when a non E bus on the same route was due, and which I was clearly told that the regular bus would not turn up, because the E is the regular bus and that around half the buses will be E's because this is what is in the working timetable. Again I don't care what is in the working timetable, I care what is on the bus stop displays, and if a bus stop display says X route is running at x time, I expect it to do so, not route xE turns up instead, since I may let that one go to wait for the regular one, which never turns up.

The back rows of seats are a bit high on those Omnilinks, thankfully the three supply deal with Scania was another one of Richard Bowker's bright ideas.

They're crap buses, sorry to say it but they are, the build quality is terrible, and it's not down to NXWM directly as I've been on Scania Integrals tjat are 12 months old and rattling away like they've been thrashed to death. I think it was a couple of rows behind the wheelchair bay where the seats were crazy tight, but can't remember exactly.

These days under Dean Finch the standard single decker now appears to be the B7RLE/Wright, ADL E400's for double deckers & E200's for midi's. Hopefully that will stay the same once once Euro 6 comes in to force
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm no fan of Alexander Products myself, prefer Wright, but they are vastly better than the Scania Integrals which can only be a good thing.

It's fair to say that the cleanliness & vehicle presentation of the existing fleet has left a lot to be desired, indeed there are still TWM liveried buses going around with dirty threadbare seats. Unfortunately again during the Richard Bowker term NX got a bit complacent in the West Midlands, the majority of new vehicle investment was going in to Travel London etc and it has well & truly bit them on the bum in terms of falling profits. WMT/TWM/NXWM was once one of the most profitable bus companies in Britain, Dean Finch seems to be investing heavily in new vehicles for UK bus, including refreshing the existing fleet, but it’s going to take time to catch up from years of neglect.

And what you have said there, is basically my experience of National Express in any operation I've used that they've run directly. It's exactly the reason I have a bad impression of National Express, and clearly this kind of stuff wasn't just restricted to one part of the business and Bowker indeed did a terrible job.

I'm sure that Finch with his background and track record so far will improve things, but as you say there is a long way to go since they were very poor and it'll take time to change my mind on that, since I was a regular rail commuter until NXEA came in on the rail side and they really drove me off commuting so I got a job elsewhere to avoid using them due to years of under investment and the likes of things you see in NXWM.

 

[Deerfold]

I've only caught two NXWM buses this year so far.

However on one of them there was someone smoking.

When the driver was told about this he said "Well, I can't do anything".

I'd view this as a one-off if I hadn't mentioned it to a local friend who said it's a regular occurance in his experience. It's something I cant imagine happening on my local Transdev-operated buses.

 

[Rich McLean]

People do more on NXWMs deckers than just smoke fags. It's normal to see people skinning up on the top deck. I have seen a bus driver confront a group of youths before, and he got assulted. Luckily my mate who was with me believes in community spirit policing, and swiftly threw them down the stairs and off the bus.

I think this is the reason why the drivers can't/won't combat it. All they can do is report it to control or the police and let them deal with it

 

[Ivo]

It's normal to see people skinning up on the top deck.

Which means what exactly?

 

[Rich McLean]

Which means what exactly?

Smoking canibis

 

[winston270twm]

I've only caught two NXWM buses this year so far.

However on one of them there was someone smoking.

When the driver was told about this he said "Well, I can't do anything".

I'd view this as a one-off if I hadn't mentioned it to a local friend who said it's a regular occurance in his experience. It's something I cant imagine happening on my local Transdev-operated buses.

I don't think NXWM drivers are meant to leave their cab's as they may not be covered by insurance in the event of an attack. They are meant to alert the safer travel team/police to deal with any serious incidents

 

[Eagle]

I've been on an NX Coventry service where the driver did just that to throw someone off for smoking. But of course that's a completely different bus operator.

 

[Mojo]

I used to be a regular on West Midlands from National Express (and Travel West Midlands before that) when I lived in Birmingham, or visited regularly between 2005 and last year. Overall, I found them to be a pretty good operator. Their fares (especially day passes) were reasonable compared to other operators, and buses loaded pretty quickly due to the 'exact fare only' policy with hoppers and the location of the ticket machine printer. Fares are also clearly advertised on the side of the buses and online; more than can be said for most operators! They seemed to have a decent fleet of new vehicles and made some good investment in this area.

Two things I did not really like was the staff - it seemed impossible to get a response to ''thank you'' when alighting (although how many of the locals treat the drivers seems to be no surprise they are a bit grumpy) - and also the crime and vandalism on the buses. Out of around 2 trips per week for several years I only travelled once where no form of crime or antisocial behaviour was taking place; I witnessed everything and anything from buses being vandalised, to smoking (including drugs), to music being played loud (the most common) to shouting, shoving, fare evasion and abuse. The buses are the most vandalised and dirtiest buses I have ever had the misfortune to travel on.