Class 27 Edinburgh-Glasgow operations

[route:oxford]

Back in 1971, Class 27s were pressed into service between Edinburgh & Glasgow in top:tail pushull format - this lasted for almost 10 years.

Did this operation contribute to the development of the HST?

 

[IanXC]

Back in 1971, Class 27s were pressed into service between Edinburgh & Glasgow in top:tail pushull format - this lasted for almost 10 years.

Did this operation contribute to the development of the HST?

Considering HST authorisation was granted by BRB in 1970, and the first prototype emerged in 1972 it seems unlikely to me.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Considering HST authorisation was granted by BRB in 1970, and the first prototype emerged in 1972 it seems unlikely to me.

The main antecedents of HST were the Blue Pullmans, dating from the late 1950s and built by Met-Camm.
These ran services Manchester-St Pancras and West Mids/Bristol/South Wales-Paddington.
They were the first trains with two diesel power cars bookending a set of trailers.
They were limited to 90mph I think, the fastest speed permitted at the time, but still far outshone anything else on these routes.
The LMR Midland Pullman was first class only and 6 cars, while the WR Pullmans were 8-car and carried a small amount of second class as well.
Technically they had an alarming ability to "shudder" when the two power cars went out of synch with each other, which fortunately was designed out of the HSTs.
They were all withdrawn before HSTs started running.

 

[ainsworth74]

Real shame that it wasn't possible to preserve anything of the Blue Pullmans, even if a full set was practical it would have been nice to keep a couple of vehicles.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree, and would go further than wishing one might have been preserved, but suggest that if they'd benefitted from the alterations, replacements and upgrades that the HSTs have received, then they might still be giving useful service today; albeit with predominantly standard class accomodation.

They might even be well suited to work on Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttles.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree, and would go further than wishing one might have been preserved, but suggest that if they'd benefitted from the alterations, replacements and upgrades that the HSTs have received, then they might still be giving useful service today; albeit with predominantly standard class accomodation.

They might even be well suited to work on Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttles.

Dunno about that, as they'd be pushing 60 now! But they might well have lasted into the 80s and would be better than a voyager!

 

[matchmaker]

Good article on the push-pull services here:

http://www.6lda28.com/shove.html

During 1970 the Scottish Region received the go ahead for service and route improvements between Glasgow and Edinburgh. £1.5 million was allocated to upgrade the Intercity service to head off expected motorway competition. On completion of the M8 between the two cities a one hour centre to centre road journey would be possible - and for which the local bus operators had already applied for 70 mph express licences.

The route via Falkirk had been diesel operated from 1957 when six car 'InterCity' DMUs (Diesel Multiple Units) were introduced. The line sustained a traffic growth of 7% per annum - double that averaged by most Intercity routes - and an increase in market share from 42 to 59% over ten years. 80% of all journeys were end to end with well balanced two way flows. On contemporary Intercity ranking, total passenger journeys were second only to London to Brighton.

After modest service accelerations in 1966, trains were scheduled 55 min eastbound and 56 min westbound, calling at Falkirk High and Haymarket only, or with a 70-71 min timing calling Lenzie, Croy, Falkirk Grahamston, Polmont, Linlithgow and Haymarket. But the DMUs were restricted to 75 mph maximum and, though having a book life of several more years, lagged well behind in terms of InterCity passenger comfort levels.

DMU operation had commenced in January 1957 using a dedicated fleet of 31 motors and 15 trailers. By 1966, the motors normally in use were based at Leith Central from the batches 79083-79111 and 79155-79168, with trailer buffets 79440-79447 and trailer firsts 79470-79483. 79091-94/96-111 had full width driving cabs without no corridor connections with the other motors were gangway fitted. All were "White Circle" coupling code but were otherwise conventional sets with AEC-BUT engines - 600 hp from four engines in each three car set. The ScR (Scottish Region) was aiming for a 45 min schedule with two intermediate stops. In 1965, some consideration had been given to either uprating or replacing the power units.... (read more)

I have experience with the signalling of these trains - they were belled on the AB sections (Polmont - Haymarket Central) using the code 4-4.

A push-pull set passing Cadder Signal Box at 90mph fairly shook the 'box!

 

[PaulLothian]

A push-pull set passing Cadder Signal Box at 90mph fairly shook the 'box!

I may previously have commented on my experience of working in an office adjacent to the line in Linlithgow. When a push-pull was heard approaching, it was standard practice to warn the person you were phoning that there would be a gap in the conversation because of the train noise and the rattling of our building because of the vibration. I forgot to provide this warning one time, and when the caller could hear me, he asked if there had been an earthquake!

The class 47s were rather better, and nowdays the 170s barely interupt your conversation on the platform as they rush through. The romance has gone...

 

[Photohunter71]

I remember as a child going through to Edinburgh for holidays from Kilwinning in the 70's. I absolutely loved train travel when you could board a DMU to Glasgow Central, dodge across to Queen street and board a loco hauled service to Edinburgh.However I seem to remember on one occasion the service was hauled by a class 37.

 

[cj_1985]

I may previously have commented on my experience of working in an office adjacent to the line in Linlithgow. When a push-pull was heard approaching, it was standard practice to warn the person you were phoning that there would be a gap in the conversation because of the train noise and the rattling of our building because of the vibration. I forgot to provide this warning one time, and when the caller could hear me, he asked if there had been an earthquake!

The class 47s were rather better, and nowdays the 170s barely interupt your conversation on the platform as they rush through. The romance has gone...

not so sure I share that opinion.... sure the days of getting on a ICWC train formed of mk3s with an 87 and a DVT were great or even getting on a class 303 at motherwell... I still find a similar level of enjoyment using a 318 or a pendo. but atleast we still have 47s etc on preserved lines or on charters for that "hit" of nostalgia

 

[jopsuk]

whilst there might be the occasional person who enjoys quarter hourly "earthquakes" from passing trains, I'd bet the majority working and living the near the line are rather happier about the relatively smooth and quiet passage of the turbostars, and will be happier still when the electrics are running (if they notice)

 

[Mugby]

Many thanks to matchmaker for that link, what an excellent article!

I travelled on the push-pull service well after the 47/7's had taken over but it must have been my lucky day because I distinctly remember it being cl.27 powered. Presumably it was covering for a failure and I guess the date would have been around 1981.

 

[caliwag]

Yes Photohunter71...someone on a tread I started on Nostalgia, mentions seeing a 37 at one end...proabably noisier than a 27. Could that have hit 90mph?

 

[jopsuk]

the site linked mentions a development set consiting of a 37 with nine mark 1s, of which one had a driving cab, used on the ECML- are there any sites with pictures of this? How fast was it able to go?

 

[matchmaker]

Yes Photohunter71...someone on a tread I started on Nostalgia, mentions seeing a 37 at one end...proabably noisier than a 27. Could that have hit 90mph?

I can remember seeing a 37 on the service. I can also remember 25's and I might even have a photo of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good article on the push-pull services here:

http://www.6lda28.com/shove.html



I have experience with the signalling of these trains - they were belled on the AB sections (Polmont - Haymarket Central) using the code 4-4.

A push-pull set passing Cadder Signal Box at 90mph fairly shook the 'box!

The 'box I remember best was the long-gone Bo'ness Junction. We knew all the signalmen there so visited regularly. The push-pull sets were very tightly timed so any delays were a big problem.

One Saturday afternoon me and my mates were at Bo'ness. Instead of the expected 4-4 push-pull from Polmont we were belled a 3-1 - ordinary passenger. This was the notorious 17.01 Dunblane - Edinburgh - which had never ever run to time since God was a boy.

Sure enough, a Class 101 staggered past at about 60 mph. Clear back (2-1) to Polmont and immediately a 4-4 (push-pull) was offered and accepted. We then got 2 beats (entering section). In other words, the 90mph push-pull set had made up time but was now stuck behind a 70mph DMU.

The only place to pass until Saughton was Linlithgow which had a passenger loop and was the next 'box to the east from Bo'ness. Straight on to the block phone - "loop the Dunblane!".

The section from Polmont to Bo'ness was shorter than that from Bo'ness to Linlithgow. Cue the annunciator at the Bo'ness distant sounding, accompanied by the sound of a horn. We watched on the track diagram until the track circuit at the home lit up. Pull off - gently! - (Rule 39a).

The push -pull set passed slowly past the 'box..

2-1 (out of section) from Linlithgow. An immediate offering on of the push-pull. Line clear received. Pull off starter and advanced starter ("Dinnae' louse that starter, son").

Incredible 6LDA28 thrash!

 

[12CSVT]

Returning to the original question, there is mention in the DVD '125' by Visions International that push pull 27s were just one of several factors which influenced the development of HSTs.

 

[HSTEd]

If nothing else I imagine the push pull operations influenced the best practice that was implemented on the HSTs.

 

[Photohunter71]

Thanks for confirming my class 37 haulage! I do remember the 27's as have vivid memories of Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull services until the 47/7's and the DBSO's came into operation.Also have memories of being 27 hauled coming from either Kinghorn or Aberdour one year back in the good old days!

 

[daikilo]

Considering HST authorisation was granted by BRB in 1970, and the first prototype emerged in 1972 it seems unlikely to me.

I wouldn't be so sure. The HST was an alternative to the APT. The first HST was described as a pair of single-ended locomotives at each end with coaches inbetween, though it soon became a fixed unit DMU. The Blue Pullmans were always DMUs with the engine above the floor in the end cars.

What was clear in those days was that split power and reversible working was the future, even for long distance. Only the East Coast 92/DVT do not have split power.

If I recall correctly, the Glasgow-Edinburgh 27 lash-up was a quick way of assembling a not-quite-HST for that route. Only problem was 2x27 took up too much space at GQS.

 

[Whistler40145]

I hope I've got this in the correct place?

First of all, does anyone know how the then Scottish Region decided to use Class 27s on Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley services?

Did the services always have a 27 on each end or did any other blue star fitted locomotives substitute?

Which routes were used for diversions?

Did any Push-Pull sets stray off the Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley route?

Any information would be gratefully received.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[delt1c]

25 & 37 pi

I hope I've got this in the correct place?

First of all, does anyone know how the then Scottish Region decided to use Class 27s on Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley services?

Did the services always have a 27 on each end or did any other blue star fitted locomotives substitute?

Which routes were used for diversions?

Did any Push-Pull sets stray off the Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley route?

Any information would be gratefully received.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
25's and 37's pt in occasional appearances however they weren't as frequent as some would lead you to believe. As for Diversions , I traveled on the push pull on severl sundays over the Bathgate Airdrie lin to Queen St Lower, where the train continued Westwards after Q/S and used a cross over to reverse. Also used the service once when diverted on a sunday via cumbernauld to Glasgow Central.
Interestingly during all my travels on these in the 70's I never encounters a reverse rake.
it really was a very efficient service

 

[edwin_m]

I think there were rules about always having the brake at the downhill end at Queen Street, imposed after a rollback of a departing train in the steam era (just tried to find the accident report but can't). So if a set got turned round I would guess it was turned back pretty quickly.

However I do remember travelling on a 47 push-pull set that was diverted via Dalmeny and therefore turned round en route. Not sure if the rule no longer applied by then or there was some workaround (guard or someone else in the rear loco?).

 

[matchmaker]

I think there were rules about always having the brake at the downhill end at Queen Street, imposed after a rollback of a departing train in the steam era (just tried to find the accident report but can't).

Do a Google for Queen Street Rail crash 1928 - that should provide links.

 

[edwin_m]

Do a Google for Queen Street Rail crash 1928 - that should provide links.

Thanks, I found that one but it was rollback colliding inside the tunnel with a following shunting move, in breach of rules which said it should have waited until the departing train was clear of the far end.

I'm sure there was another one I can't now locate. The train slipped back until the last coach emerged from the tunnel, then collided with something else in the station. The comment was made that the rear guard should apply the brakes if he finds the train going back into the station, and special rules were put in place to ensure there was always someone at the back of each train to do this.

 

[route:oxford]

Within the eight 27s that are in preservation, are there any pair that are still capable of operating in push-pull mode with a rake of Mark IIs?

 

[edwin_m]

Any locos with the appropriate multiple working equipment could have operated the push-pull, as shown by mentions of classes 25 and 37 being used occasionally. The multiple working jumpers were standard on all three classes so a preserved example in full working order would be able to run push-pull. At least one of the locos would have to be ETH-fitted to heat the train, and the rear one might have to carry a member of staff if it did not have automatic fire extinguishers.

Probably more of an obstacle is that the stock used with the class 27s had to be modified with through jumper cables, unlike the later class 47 system which worked with any air-braked stock. I don't know if any of these modified coaches has even survived, let alone with working jumper cables. BR Research was using an ex-E&G Mk2 in the Nineties as the (second) Lab 5 track recording coach, but it was scrapped due to severe corrosion.

Did the Weymouth top'n'tail services with Fragonset Class 31s and Mk2 aircons in around 2004 use the same system? If so where are those coaches now and do they still have the jumpers?

 

[route:oxford]

Probably more of an obstacle is that the stock used with the class 27s had to be modified with through jumper cables.

Would it really be that difficult? It's a 27 way cable isn't it?

Although these days it's probably more likely to run with a digital converter box on each end and (robust) cat5 connections.

 

[delt1c]

One thing i have never understood is why when the service was converted to 47 push pull did the 27/2 not retain their eth and be used on other services i.e West Highland. The eth was from a seperate diesel generator and did not tap the loco of power.

 

[matchmaker]

One thing i have never understood is why when the service was converted to 47 push pull did the 27/2 not retain their eth and be used on other services i.e West Highland. The eth was from a seperate diesel generator and did not tap the loco of power.

Possibly for West Highland services they would have had to double head some services (sleeper for example) which a 37/4 could handle alone?

 

[delt1c]

At the time the 37's hadnt been cleared for the West Highland and the service was in the hands of 27's with occasional 25's. 37/4 was not even planned. At the time there was a shortage of eth power and south of the border 31's were recently converted.
Seemed strange that the eth 27's wernt beter utilised