Extra Virgin West Coast services rejected by NR

[Pumbaa]

The Manchester services have healthy loadings on the whole. xx00 tend to be heavy from London, punters like the headline top of the hour train, xx20 is rammed up till MK usually with both savvy daytrippers and NR staff, xx40 is busy throughout journey as the main Crewe train and Local Cheshire market. Coming up, the same is true. xx15 quiet till MK, xx35 fairly busy, xx55 massive flux at Crewe.

 

[gordonthemoron]

yes, the 20:29 from crewe (19:55 ex MA) on wednesday was pretty busy

 

[Cliveblackpool]

all the Euston-Manchester Saturday services I've travelled on (mainly via Stoke) are very lightly loaded

Could this service not be extended to Blackpool? I think First were proposing to run a service this direction, via Bolton?
With wires coming soon to Blackpool, Todmorden Curve, and Ordsall Chord, opens up many changes and new routes.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...resort-s-future-say-sign-up-traders-1-5781623

 

[gordonthemoron]

it's an idea if they have spare sets

 

[northwichcat]

The Manchester services have healthy loadings on the whole. xx00 tend to be heavy from London, punters like the headline top of the hour train, xx20 is rammed up till MK usually with both savvy daytrippers and NR staff, xx40 is busy throughout journey as the main Crewe train and Local Cheshire market. Coming up, the same is true. xx15 quiet till MK, xx35 fairly busy, xx55 massive flux at Crewe.

Reinstating Hartford as a calling point on Liverpool-London services would suit a lot of Cheshire business people better than Crewe. Some use it anyway, despite a change being required at Crewe but many drive to Crewe instead. It would also make the case for Liverpool-London to go to 2tph very strong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could this service not be extended to Blackpool? I think First were proposing to run a service this direction, via Bolton?
With wires coming soon to Blackpool, Todmorden Curve and Ordsall Chord, opens up many changes and new routes.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...resort-s-future-say-sign-up-traders-1-5781623

But if it was a choice of a direct Manchester Airport service or a direct London service which would Blackpool choose?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I shouldn't think the existence of a few lightly loaded services is going to affect the principle of 3tph to Manchester/Birmingham, certainly M-F.
The DfT and Virgin decided to do this on the basis of business need and opportunity.
You can't just divert an odd train to another destination without destroying the service proposition.
Weekend travel is also still a novelty on the WCML after a decade of virtually no-go, and is notoriously peaky depending on sporting events, holidays, weather etc.
Last year's DfT 15-year ITT retained the 2008 VHF pattern, so there is no reason to think they want to change it.
We can all think of lightly loaded trains on other TOCs, even those which are overcrowded at other times.
Very few of the Northern off-peak services I use are busy, but nobody talks about diverting them to other destinations - they are needed to be positioned for the peak.
Some of the emptiest trains in the country operate out of Liverpool St and other commuter terminals at around 0930.
It will be interesting to see if the DfT makes any changes to the various service specs in the extension contracts.

 

[northwichcat]

Very few of the Northern off-peak services I use are busy, but nobody talks about diverting them to other destinations - they are needed to be positioned for the peak.

I'd say ignoring a few services between 12pm and 2pm a lot of Northern lines have healthy loadings off-peak. On Saturdays and during school holidays services between 10am and 1pm and between 4pm and 7pm can be rammed.

Some of the lower loadings on Northern services are down to the service being poorly timed to meet demand, which is usually the result of Northern being given the left over paths after operators like Virgin have taken the ones they want.

Also don't forget that less local services would mean less people would be able to suitably connect on to Intercity services.

 

[TheWalrus]

Why do NR/ORR/DfT reject every new service proposal? Before this they also rejected LMs proposal to run Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston.

 

[Eagle]

Why do NR/ORR/DfT reject every new service proposal? Before this they also rejected LMs proposal to run Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston.

Not everything. The ORR approved LM's Project 110.

 

[tbtc]

Why do NR/ORR/DfT reject every new service proposal? Before this they also rejected LMs proposal to run Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston.

They don't reject everything, but the ones that are rejected tend to be pored over a lot more - e.g. nobody has complained about the idea of allowing a fifth transpennine service an hour between Manchester and Leeds because we're more concerned about being happy that its going ahead.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, hand full of OAO's have had their requests granted, not all have been sucessful after they were up and running. Probably most sucessful franchise going to the Government and asking for permission to do more has been Chiltern though.

 

[TheWalrus]

Why were the examples I gave rejected? If they let operators do more, we could have a much better service and more services giving increased journey opportunities.

However the argument against would be if this resulted in more competition it may lead to reduced premiums paid to the government.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why were the examples I gave rejected? If they let operators do more, we could have a much better service and more services giving increased journey opportunities.

However the argument against would be if this resulted in more competition it may lead to reduced premiums paid to the government.

I think the Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston rejections were in the days of VT competition protection.
While this does not apply now, there is a log-jam of applications waiting for a timetable rewrite, which keeps on being put back.
The franchise fiasco hasn't helped either as few TOCs have security of tenure, and now there's the WCML South performance issue.
I think the ORR is desperate to avoid legal challenges as happened on the ECML.

 

[northwichcat]

Why do NR/ORR/DfT reject every new service proposal? Before this they also rejected LMs proposal to run Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston.

Network Rail support the idea of LM running Euston-Liverpool and Birmingham-Preston. However, they feel it needs to be done in conjunction with other changes which affect the XC Manchester-Birmingham services and the Northern Manchester-Stoke services meaning that any LM changes need to be done when there's a full recast.

They don't reject everything, but the ones that are rejected tend to be pored over a lot more - e.g. nobody has complained about the idea of allowing a fifth transpennine service an hour between Manchester and Leeds because we're more concerned about being happy that its going ahead.

Actually there were some complaints to TPE running 5tph on North TPE from Alliance Rail while Northern and XC raised some concerns while for TPE Scottish services Virgin complained and TfGM raised concerns but ORR seem to be happy with TPE's plans.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You know I do have a bit of sympathy for NR in this case. They're being sued by Virgin for failing to provide a reliable enough railway and yet at the same time Virgin are still asking for even more trains to be run meaning that it's even harder to keep the route reliable!

There seems to have been an outbreak of peace and goodwill between NR and Virgin in this NR announcement, regarding WCML South: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...improve-West-Coast-rail-performance-1dbf.aspx
And the BBC's take: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23097577

Dyan Crowther, route managing director, Network Rail said: “We are not satisfied with the current performance of our infrastructure on the southern end of the West Coast main line, which is one of Britain’s most vital rail arteries.
...
“We have identified almost £40m worth of investment aimed at improving performance by targeting some of the most common causes of delay. Some of the measures will be delivered in a few short months while others are more long-term

Chris Gibb, Chief Operating Officer at Virgin Trains added: “I am pleased that Network Rail has decided to progress all the recommendations and make a £40m investment to improve performance on the southern end of West Coast Main Line for our customers. Already we are starting to see that investment actually taking place but both Network Rail and the train operators need to keep the pressure on to ensure that lasting improvements in performance are achieved.”

The main measures are about OHLE condition, and lineside fencing.

I wonder if this is enough to remove the block on Virgin's Shrewsbury/Blackpool services and the threat of legal action?
Maybe the start will be put back to next May to allow time for the NR improvements to take effect.
Both sets of egos would be satisfied by that, I think.

 

[snowball]

I haven't been following this thread but whenever I read the title I see the first two words and think of olive oil.

And I still don't know what EVOO is.

 

[WatcherZero]

I wonder if this is enough to remove the block on Virgin's Shrewsbury/Blackpool services and the threat of legal action?
Maybe the start will be put back to next May to allow time for the NR improvements to take effect.
Both sets of egos would be satisfied by that, I think.

Well it never was going to go into Virgins pockets anyway, they were sueing for extra investment by NR to meet its obligations. On the outbreak of peace the word is the Government wernt happy with NR's objection as they had already greenlit extra spending by Virgin on the services and were only a day away from a big PR announcement from ministers trumping the new service as the Governments success. They may lean on NR to withdraw their opposition or for ORR to approve the request despite NR objections.

 

[NickJ]

I understand that the 5 Shropshire MPs are meeting the Secretary of State for Transport tomorrow to look for ways to get the new Virgin services started in December. Hopefully the 'peace treaty' between Virgin and NR is a good sign for this meeting!

 

[IanXC]

In that context this mornings piece on BBC Breakfast wasn't that helpfull! Alsthom and Virgin showing off F1 technology to keep trains in service, then finishing off with 'most delays are still caused by track and signals, but at least the trains will be ok'...

 

[gordonthemoron]

In that context this mornings piece on BBC Breakfast wasn't that helpfull! Alsthom and Virgin showing off F1 technology to keep trains in service, then finishing off with 'most delays are still caused by track and signals, but at least the trains will be ok'...

and broken down trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and suicides

 

[dk1]

In that context this mornings piece on BBC Breakfast wasn't that helpfull! Alsthom and Virgin showing off F1 technology to keep trains in service, then finishing off with 'most delays are still caused by track and signals, but at least the trains will be ok'...

A senior Virgin Trains manager was heard to agree at the recent Rail Industry Awards that Pendolino reliability had taken a dip & that the 'pit-stop' initiative was one of the reasons.

 

[calc7]

A senior Virgin Trains manager was heard to agree at the recent Rail Industry Awards that Pendolino reliability had taken a dip & that the 'pit-stop' initiative was one of the reasons.

What's the pit stop initiative?

 

[IanXC]

What's the pit stop initiative?

There is some introduction in the BBC News article here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23132335

On the face of it, you wouldn't think that fixing an F1 car had much in common with fixing a 550 tonne pendolino train (you know, the Virgin trains that tilt).

But train and bus companies have started working with the Williams Formula One team to help improve their service.

The companies are buying advice and equipment to make their vehicles more reliable, something every passenger in the land will be grateful for.

Take pit stops for example. By watching a F1 team at work, train maker Alstom says it has been able to turn a two day repair job into a four hour repair job.

 

[calc7]

There is some introduction in the BBC News article here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23132335

Interesting - thank you

 

[Muzer]

Why would that decrease reliability? Just because the repairs are no longer being carried out correctly, etc.?

 

[gordonthemoron]

So Alsthom built the Pendolinos with all this Computer telemetry and the engineers didn't know what to do with it until Williams stepped in? Sounds ridiculous, and probably true

 

[NickJ]

At the meeting yesterday between the Shropshire MPs and the Secretary of State for Transport, it seems that the issue of the 2 new Shrewsbury-London services will be finally decided by the ORR. The Secretary of State has written to the ORR supporting the introduction of these new services for what it is worth!

 

[merlodlliw]

At the meeting yesterday between the Shropshire MPs and the Secretary of State for Transport, it seems that the issue of the 2 new Shrewsbury-London services will be finally decided by the ORR. The Secretary of State has written to the ORR supporting the introduction of these new services for what it is worth!

this is what I put up thread on post 10

No doubt the local MPs will be playing hell,and quiet right too.

But the ORR can overide NR if it wants to,but as quangos go,little chance

It now depends on what pressures the Secretary Of State has, after all he elects who serves on the ORR quango. I get the feel Shrewsbury well see its two VTs after all.

 

[Whistler40145]

If the Shrewsbury services do get the nod, would this put weight behind the proposed Blackpool services or is that being treated as a separate fight?

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[LNW-GW Joint]

If the Shrewsbury services do get the nod, would this put weight behind the proposed Blackpool services or is that being treated as a separate fight?
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They are both in the same application and have the same WCML impact.
However, Alliance has an application pending for Blackpool which means ORR might treat it differently.

The Sec of State cannot tell ORR what to do.