Ticket Awareness at Piccadilly Manchester

[northwichcat]

The solution was straightforward - I explained the situation to the "gripper" and suggested I nip upstairs to the atm at the arena. He was happy to agree to this, and two minutes later cash had been obtained and the fare paid. So common sense does sometimes apply, and some G4S staff are very capable of using it.

So would it work like that if you weren't familiar with the station layout and didn't know whether there was an ATM or not?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Common sense would suggest that the staff mention where an ATM is or the passenger would ask where one is so they can get the money.

 

[Flamingo]

The only problem with "I'll just go to the ATM and get cash" is who is going to accompany the passenger to the ATM to ensure they don't forget to come back?

 

[D841 Roebuck]

The only problem with "I'll just go to the ATM and get cash" is who is going to accompany the passenger to the ATM to ensure they don't forget to come back?

A fair point.

Obviously, the person concerned thought (correctly) that I am an honest, upstanding member of society and acted accordingly!

 

[transmanche]

The only problem with "I'll just go to the ATM and get cash" is who is going to accompany the passenger to the ATM to ensure they don't forget to come back?

Sometimes you just have to take people on trust. Especially when the railway is at 'fault' (e.g. faulty equipment, unstaffed ticket office, etc)

 

[Flamingo]

Sometimes you just have to take people on trust. Especially when the railway is at 'fault' (e.g. faulty equipment, unstaffed ticket office, etc)

That's making a lot of assumptions, that in the majority of cases are not true.

The majority of passengers I sell tickets to have come from manned stations with both booking offices and TVM's.

The best excuse a lot of them can come up with is "I didn't have time to go to the booking office".

 

[transmanche]

Sometimes you just have to take people on trust. Especially when the railway is at 'fault' (e.g. faulty equipment, unstaffed ticket office, etc)

That's making a lot of assumptions, that in the majority of cases are not true.

The majority of passengers I sell tickets to have come from manned stations with both booking offices and TVM's.

The best excuse a lot of them can come up with is "I didn't have time to go to the booking office".

That's not relevant to the situation under discussion:

About 3 years ago, I travelled into Manchester Vic from an unstaffed station. Neither the card reader on the train nor that belonging to the G4S staff at the gateline would work, and - unusually - I had no cash on me.

 

[Flamingo]

That's not relevant to the situation under discussion:

My original post was. Your post was simply uninformed bias. The above post is jus bluster because the facts contradict this.

 

[jb]

The only problem with "I'll just go to the ATM and get cash" is who is going to accompany the passenger to the ATM to ensure they don't forget to come back?

No-one, in this particular case. The poster mentioned that attempts to use card readers both on the train and platform had failed. To my mind this gives him some reason to be taken at his word - you are perhaps mixing this up with situations where people are expecting to be taken at their word straight off, with no particular reason to do so. Which is perhaps understandable given how much of it you read on here.

 

[island]

The only problem with "I'll just go to the ATM and get cash" is who is going to accompany the passenger to the ATM to ensure they don't forget to come back?

No-one, in this particular case. The poster mentioned that attempts to use card readers both on the train and platform had failed. To my mind this gives him some reason to be taken at his word - you are perhaps mixing this up with situations where people are expecting to be taken at their word straight off, with no particular reason to do so. Which is perhaps understandable given how much of it you read on here.

The on-train and ticket gate machines are the same, so if a card isn't accepted by one chances are the other will fare no better. Normally this is because the card requires the transaction to be authorized online.

At the main Manchester stations, Northern seems to have a couple of people who covertly follow passengers in this situation and intercept them if they leave the station not having paid.

 

[transmanche]

My original post was. Your post was simply uninformed bias. The above post is jus bluster because the facts contradict this.

Ah that's your usual "I work on the railway so I am right. You don't work on the railway, so you can't possibly know what you're talking about and your opinion doesn't count." response.

Suggesting that everyone needs to be followed to the ATM so "they don't forget to come back" speaks volumes for your own bias, rather than mine. I can't imagine that would happen in other industries (in fact I can think of two counter-examples that have happened to me), but doubtless you'll claim that as they aren't on the railway, they aren't valid comparisons... :roll:

 

[Flamingo]

Ah that's your usual "I work on the railway so I am right. You don't work on the railway, so you can't possibly know what you're talking about and your opinion doesn't count." response.

Suggesting that everyone needs to be followed to the ATM so "they don't forget to come back" speaks volumes for your own bias, rather than mine. I can't imagine that would happen in other industries (in fact I can think of two counter-examples that have happened to me), but doubtless you'll claim that as they aren't on the railway, they aren't valid comparisons... :roll:

Ok, all staff don't know what they are talking about, all railway equipment doesn't work., and we are only in the job to harrass innocent people.

Anything else you want me to agree with you about? After all, you pay my wages, so you must be right...

 

[dcsprior]

I used to do 1st-line IT support in a branch of a department store chain. One of the calls we dreaded taking was a faulty till in the smaller of the two customer-catering outlets within the store, as they had only one till.

When this happened, the assistants would say to customers to just sit down and have their drinks/etc as normal and pay on their way out; if it still wasn't working on their way out, then if the customer was paying cash payment would be taken and a hand-written receipt issued, but if the customer was paying by card, no payment would be taken.

We could've made the customer walk to the another catering outlet in the store (on a different floor, and the other side of the building), but given the choice between irritating a customer and losing £5-£10, there was a clear direction from management to write off the small amount of money to keep the customer's future business - I think this approach was right.

As this was the smaller (coffee/cake) catering outlet there weren't any instances of over £10 being written off - if there had been, I think we would've asked them to go to the main restaurant to pay, but would've given them a voucher for a free coffee/cake next time to make up for the inconvenience

This thread is discussing a similar set of circumstances, and not only are people saying its right to expect the customer to trek to an ATM and back, but also that they shouldn't be trusted to do so without being followed. It is not unreasonable for a customer to expect to be off the train and out of the station within 5 minutes, so if the railway company can't do this due to equipment failure, they rather than inconvenience their customers and make them late for whatever appointment, bus connection etc they should consider letting customers off with small amounts (e.g. under £10) and sending bills out for larger amounts.

 

[island]

Northern doesn't have much of a motivation to try to keep people's business, though, as it has a monopoly on rail travel over most of its network.

 

[BestWestern]

Ok, all staff don't know what they are talking about, all railway equipment doesn't work., and we are only in the job to harrass innocent people.

Anything else you want me to agree with you about? After all, you pay my wages, so you must be right...

^

Bit of a sorry old situation though, (I've scanned, not read every word). Train packed, railway can't accept somebody's payment because the equipment was made during the industrial revolution or the train was packed or whatever, so we demand they spend time after their journey standing a huge queue at a packed ticket office. Stepping outside of the 'rooles is rooles' box for a moment, it isn't really very good, is it? If we informed the passenger at the start of their journey, that they were welcome to travel but would be required to spend X number of minutes stood waiting at the other end, without any form of acknowledgement or compensation for the lost chunk of their day, then fair enough. But we don't. How is a passenger to know that the railway can't/won't accept their perfectly legitimate means of payment? It's a nasty little set up, we don't tell them beforehand, then once they're on we load them up with obligation from which they have no escape. Railway needs to get it's act together - and I work here!

 

[Starmill]

Ok, all staff don't know what they are talking about.... and we are only in the job to harras innocent people.

I am certain you aren't Flamingo, and indeed none of the other staff on here are likely to be by virtue of the fact that you are here. That doesn't mean...

Bit of a sorry old situation though, (I've scanned, not read every word). Train packed, railway can't accept somebody's payment because the equipment was made during the industrial revolution or the train was packed or whatever, so we demand they spend time after their journey standing a huge queue at a packed ticket office. Stepping outside of the 'rooles is rooles' box for a moment, it isn't really very good, is it? If we informed the passenger at the start of their journey, that they were welcome to travel but would be required to spend X number of minutes stood waiting at the other end, without any form of acknowledgement or compensation for the lost chunk of their day, then fair enough. But we don't. How is a passenger to know that the railway can't/won't accept their perfectly legitimate means of payment? It's a nasty little set up, we don't tell them beforehand, then once they're on we load them up with obligation from which they have no escape. Railway needs to get it's act together - and I work here!

Although it wouldn't solve it completely, all-day manned ticket offices at more Greater Manchester stations would go a very long way to reducing this problem. It's TfGM who need to sort this out.

 

[185]

Although it wouldn't solve it completely, all-day manned ticket offices at more Greater Manchester stations would go a very long way to reducing this problem. It's TfGM who need to sort this out.

Annoying TfGM's shiny new office, when it's rail stations mostly have no permanent staff present.

Merseyside next door has a similar number of stations, and yet can staff all it's booking offices first 'til last train.

 

[Starmill]

Merseyside next door has a similar number of stations, and yet can staff all it's booking offices first 'til last train.

Absolutely infuriating, isn't it?

Hunt's Cross has a ticket office open just as you say, first train to last, but one stop down to Widnes, which seems to have around twice as many passengers, and the ticket office closes at 14:25! And its not open at all on Sundays! Pathetic!

That said, Merseytravel don't have a tram network...

 

[craigwilson]

That said, Merseytravel don't have a tram network...

But it's not like that's heavily staffed either!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Annoying TfGM's shiny new office, when it's rail stations mostly have no permanent staff present.

Merseyside next door has a similar number of stations, and yet can staff all it's booking offices first 'til last train.

And they can provide train running information on most (if not all) it's stations, unlike TfGMs patch which barely manages half the stations (and I think I am being generous with that).

 

[Starmill]

And they can provide train running information on most (if not all) it's stations, unlike TfGMs patch which barely manages half the stations (and I think I am being generous with that).

Indeed. And how many of those have only come online in the past 5 years?

FFS, doesn't Penychain, a request stop for a holiday camp with 3,000 passengers a year now have a screen!?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But it's not like that's heavily staffed either!!

No... but it still costs money in other ways. And perhaps political/managerial capital is lacking too? i.e. its not so much a case of funding for ticket office/platform information improvements but a driver for it?

 

[trentside]

FFS, doesn't Penychain, a request stop for a holiday camp with 3,000 passengers a year now have a screen!?

I believe Sugar Loaf has an electronic screen too, with just an average of between 80-120 passengers per year.

It's the same for most (if not all) of the stations on the Heart of Wales line.

 

[Starmill]

I believe Sugar Loaf has an electronic screen too, with just an average of between 80-120 passengers per year.

It's the same for most (if not all) of the stations on the Heart of Wales line.

They have to display instructions for hailing the train

 

[Deerfold]

They have to display instructions for hailing the train

Presumably that could be put on a normal sign...

 

[Starmill]

Presumably that could be put on a normal sign...

Well, exactly.

But if you have the luxury of a screen at a backwater of a request stop then you might as well exploit that right? I believe ATW use them to advertise their Cambrian Railcard too!

 

[northwichcat]

Absolutely infuriating, isn't it?

Hunt's Cross has a ticket office open just as you say, first train to last, but one stop down to Widnes, which seems to have around twice as many passengers, and the ticket office closes at 14:25! And its not open at all on Sundays! Pathetic!

Widnes seems to be in a group of Northern Rail staffed stations that get limited staffing hours. Northwich (also outside a PTE area) gets a similar staffing level. Hale (in the TfGM area) is even worse and with some people changing to the Metrolink services just down the road in Altrincham it needs the conductor to issue 20 tickets in 2 minutes on some services for people to not travel ticket-less.

Widnes ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 07:00 - 14:25
Saturday 07:00 - 14:25
Sunday Closed

Northwich ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 06:15 - 13:30
Saturday 07:15 - 14:30
Sunday Closed

Hale ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 07:10 - 13:40
Saturday Closed
Sunday Closed

If you look at an LM managed station in Cheshire which have had ticket office hours reduced and get similar levels of patronage to Northwich:

Hartford ticket office opening hours:
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday 06:00 - 17:00
Friday 06:00 - 19:00
Saturday 07:00 - 15:00
Sunday 10:35 - 12:00

No wonder LM were claiming the staffing hours were too long if Northern could get away with much shorter ones.

 

[Mojo]

No wonder LM were claiming the staffing hours were too long if Northern could get away with much shorter ones.

The overwhelming majority of stations in the Network West Midlands area used to be staffed during traffic hours (if I recall correctly it was only Bloxwich, Bloxwich North, Whitlocks End, Wythall and Earlswood that were unstaffed either entirely or for part of the day) but this was drastically cut back recently as part of LM's plans which you refer to.

I think a lot of the original early opening hours had a lot to do with the involvement of the West Midlands PTE way back when and was something they never got around to changing. Long hours at places like Lichfield TV were always a bit of a mystery to me though (perhaps something to do with the Intercity trains calling there?)