DB approved access to Chunnel

[warriorofrovac]

Noticed this mentioned on Daily Mail, but the article infuriated me for the continued, completely unnecessary war references. #thirdratejournalism

So I present article from the International Rail Journal. This announcement has been a long-time coming.

DB secures Channel Tunnel access


AFTER three years of studies, the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission (IGC) has granted German Rail (DB) a 'Certificate B' operating licence to run passenger trains between France and Britain.

In a statement issued on June 14, Eurotunnel welcomed the IGC's decision, which is eventually expected to attract 3-4 million additional high-speed passengers per year, in addition to the 10 million passengers already carried by Eurostar.

Eurotunnel says no additional infrastructure investment will be required as sufficient paths are available to accommodate DB's planned services.

Preconfiguration tests were first carried out in October 2010 using an ICE3MF multi-system train equipped with TVM430 and ETCS. Later that month DB announced it intended to launch services from London to Amsterdam, Cologne, and Frankfurt by this year, but delays in securing Channel Tunnel access and the protracted approval of the class 407 Velaro-D fleet in Germany means services are unlikely to begin until 2016 at the earliest.

The class 407s were due to enter service in Germany by December 2011, but are still awaiting Federal Railway Authority (EBA) approval for operation in multiple, a prerequisite for operating in the tunnel. The trains are to be retrofitted with new braking software and a new approval process will begin in July. Siemens has told the German media recently that this process, which is largely in the hands of the EBA, could take anything between four and 18 months to complete, meaning the trains would finally be available for commercial service in Germany sometime between November 2013 and January 2015.

As the DB trains have yet achieve TSI compliance, approvals for France, Belgium, Britain and elsewhere on the basis of the TSI cannot begin properly.

DB will also have to satisfy British immigration authorities that it complies with stringent conditions for passport checks at stations before it can begin operating commercial services.

Simply cannot wait to see St. Pancras with Eurostars and ICE side by side. Trip to Cologne here I come!

 

[starrymarkb]

They were just as bad when the ICE came to St Pancras on the promotional run.

"Sixty Years ago they were bombing London but this train shows how relations with Germany have improved"

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK that article is worse then I thought!

 

[CMS]

Whilst I will also be looking forward to the ICE running directly out of St Pancras, I genuinely think that Eurostar already have a monopoly on the CTRL rail market. Apart from Amsterdam, Cologne, Brussels and Paris - is there a legitimate case for further competitive services?

The ICEs will make Amsterdam/Cologne travel a lot easier but with Eurostar potentially getting the stock required quicker and with probably less legal obstacles to face - they may make a go at destroying DB's plans, particularly on the Amsterdam route with SNCB co-operation.

In France, considering the SNCF's stake in Eurostar, I can't imagine any services jeopardising Eurostar and the TGV traffic, and there probably isn't a business case for London-Spain unless fares are dirt cheap. Trenitalia have said that they envisage a through service to London, but I cannot see how this would logistically work, especially competing with the TGV Lyria.

Eurostar has its eye on Geneva, and with even more politicians/holidaymakers shuttling between London and Strasbourg, including the current £99 returns they're offering, they're likely to grab hold of UK-France/Switzerland travel.

I think London - Vienna/Berlin/Warsaw/Moscow would not be feasible in comparison with Eurolines coaches and low-cost flight times unless they operated as a sleeper service, so altogether there is only limited scope for the UK HS rail market - being France, the Benelux, Germany and Switzerland - Eurostar territory.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Isn't the new E* stock Siemens Velaro too? They're going to have the same issues running in Germany as DB, unless they send the 373s there and use the e320s on the original 3 capital routes.

 

[transmanche]

Isn't the new E* stock Siemens Velaro too? They're going to have the same issues running in Germany as DB, unless they send the 373s there and use the e320s on the original 3 capital routes.

Can the 373s operate on the German voltage? (I thought Germany used something like 15kV with a lower frequency too.)

 

[Polarbear]

Can the 373s operate on the German voltage? (I thought Germany used something like 15kV with a lower frequency too.)

No. 373's can work on 25kv ac, 3000 v dc & 1500 v dc, but not the German/Austrian voltage.

 

[Eagle]

"Sixty Years ago they were bombing London but this train shows how relations with Germany have improved"

OK that article is worse then I thought!

Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention in year 9 history, but I don't remember London being bombed in 1953. :roll:

 

[Goldfish62]

Whilst I will also be looking forward to the ICE running directly out of St Pancras, I genuinely think that Eurostar already have a monopoly on the CTRL rail market. Apart from Amsterdam, Cologne, Brussels and Paris - is there a legitimate case for further competitive services?

The ICEs will make Amsterdam/Cologne travel a lot easier but with Eurostar potentially getting the stock required quicker and with probably less legal obstacles to face - they may make a go at destroying DB's plans, particularly on the Amsterdam route with SNCB co-operation.

In France, considering the SNCF's stake in Eurostar, I can't imagine any services jeopardising Eurostar and the TGV traffic, and there probably isn't a business case for London-Spain unless fares are dirt cheap. Trenitalia have said that they envisage a through service to London, but I cannot see how this would logistically work, especially competing with the TGV Lyria.

Eurostar has its eye on Geneva, and with even more politicians/holidaymakers shuttling between London and Strasbourg, including the current £99 returns they're offering, they're likely to grab hold of UK-France/Switzerland travel.

I think London - Vienna/Berlin/Warsaw/Moscow would not be feasible in comparison with Eurolines coaches and low-cost flight times unless they operated as a sleeper service, so altogether there is only limited scope for the UK HS rail market - being France, the Benelux, Germany and Switzerland - Eurostar territory.

Eurostar have been hinting recently that they are considering scrapping all plans for expansion, because of high access charges on the NS high-speed line and the onerous requirements of UKBA. They have already announced that they are only refurbishing 14 373 sets, which would then be used mainly on Brussels services, with the Velaros, which they probably now wish they never ordered, being used on the Paris run. Added into this are the horrendous technical problems with the Velaros, which now aren't expected in service until at least 2015.

Of course, all this is in the light of what was DB's seemingly insurmountable problem of not getting a channel licence. If DB weren't to operate to St Pancras there would be little incentive for Eurostar to do any more than it's doing at the moment. If DB do (and it's a big IF) decide to press ahead with services to the UK it may spur Eurostar back into action.

My gut feeling, though, is that we won't see any expansion of cross-channel services because of UKBA security and immigration requirements, which seem to be getting ever-tougher, thus making the business case for the services ever more untenable.

 

[edwin_m]

No, it's extremely hard to make the economics stack up. London, Paris and Brussels are three large cities placed about the ideal distance apart for rail to be competitive with air, so Eurostar can just about survive on the journeys between London and the other two.

Every other international service in the world, as far as I can recall, also carries domestic passengers on the countries it passes through and probably wouldn't be able to run otherwise. To do this it is in practice essential to have on-train passport checks where the relevant borders require it, plus no requirement for security screening on boarding.

In short, the UK's inflexible attitude to these controls is probably denying us a wide range of through rail journeys beyond Brussels, Paris and London, and effectively handing an unfair advantage to the airlines.

 

[richw]

Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention in year 9 history, but I don't remember London being bombed in 1953. :roll:

So the journalist not only feels the need to dredge up history, but doesn't even know when it happened!

Did they bring up any of the Anglo-French wars when Eurotunnel launched?

 

[atillathehunn]

I thought that was implied when the trains ran to Waterloo International?!

 

[starrymarkb]

The comments on the mail article show a lot of hostility to the idea too (with many references to stopping at Calais to load up Illegal Immigrants).

 

[Eagle]

I thought that was implied when the trains ran to Waterloo International?!

Which could have been counteracted if the Eurostar ran to Paris Austerlitz rather than Nord

 

[Goldfish62]

The comments on the mail article show a lot of hostility to the idea too (with many references to stopping at Calais to load up Illegal Immigrants).

What do you expect from "The Daily Fear & Hate"?

 

[jopsuk]

Isn't the new E* stock Siemens Velaro too? They're going to have the same issues running in Germany as DB, unless they send the 373s there and use the e320s on the original 3 capital routes.

The issues DB are having, as far as I understand, are to do with multiple running. The e320s are going to be 16-car fixed formations- so won't have this issue!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Isn't it about time E* increased the frequency of trains to Paris & Brussels? Cheap tickets seem to be harder to come by than they used to be and there are big gaps between Brussels services

 

[Eagle]

Well they'd need more trains to do that, obviously.

(Good thing they're getting the new 374s.)

 

[87015]

Well they'd need more trains to do that, obviously.

(Good thing they're getting the new 374s.)

Would they? There are "Three Capitals" sets stored, on long term loan to SNCF and always plenty spare on depots, i don't think they are stretched at the moment! (Still not able to wash them it seems, though)

Given the debacle that is ICE3 reliability into Brussels, I don't hold much hope the new Velaro (if they ever do eventually work) will be a reliable route to the continent, sadly.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have to say I have had problems with ICE3s between Cologne and Brussels, on most of the occasions I've used them although I've only had to detrain once between stations

 

[MCR247]

Would they? There are "Three Capitals" sets stored, on long term loan to SNCF and always plenty spare on depots, i don't think they are stretched at the moment! (Still not able to wash them it seems, though)
.

And its not like they diagram their fleet with minimal turnarounds etc! It always amazes me how many 373s are in St Pancras compared to the frequency of their services!

 

[jopsuk]

There's three full sets (out of 31) with SNCF on domestic services- how many are "stored"?

And if push came to shove, could the NoL sets be cannibalised into full length sets- I assume the TF cars are identical to the TS cars (with different seats), so with a new interior the seven sets could easily become four. If the Buffet cars could be converted too, you could have five- leaving you with four spare power cars, four motor-standards and four inner-end first class cars, for spares.

 

[radamfi]

Are the problems with the ICE3 confined to the Brussels to Aachen stretch? Do they run OK on German domestic lines and the other international routes the ICE3 runs, such as to Amsterdam and Paris?

 

[starrymarkb]

IME ICE-T's seem to have Air-con issues (2 return trips, twice our booked coach has been locked out for defective air-con)

 

[gordonthemoron]

All the problems I have experienced with ICE3s have been in Belgium

 

[cgcenet]

Whilst I will also be looking forward to the ICE running directly out of St Pancras, I genuinely think that Eurostar already have a monopoly on the CTRL rail market. Apart from Amsterdam, Cologne, Brussels and Paris - is there a legitimate case for further competitive services?
...
altogether there is only limited scope for the UK HS rail market - being France, the Benelux, Germany and Switzerland - Eurostar territory.

The fact that there are still frequent flights between SE England airports and mainland European cities that are accessible by rail from London directly or with one change suggests otherwise. I suspect that as the de facto (and largely unregulated) monopoly, it suits Eurostar to run a relatively infrequent passenger service (by the general standards of long-distance high-speed trains) and charge high fares for it. Cross-channel passenger train service frequency is actually rather poor. Paris, Lille and Brussels are served with reasonable (although far from ideal) frequency, but there is no meaningful inter-regional train service between Kent and Pas-de-Calais (Lille being the only properly served intermediate station), and very few services beyond Paris and Brussels. I agree with other posters that the main impediment to increased frequency of trains and a wider range of destinations (whether served by Eurostar or A N Other Company) is UKBA inflexibility.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Paris has a reasonable service of 1 or 2 tph, Brussels has some big gaps between services

 

[transmanche]

The fact that there are still frequent flights between SE England airports and mainland European cities that are accessible by rail from London directly or with one change suggests otherwise.

Eurostar currently has 80% of the London-Paris/Brussels market. Which suggests that airlines are finding it hard to compete on price, convenience or end-to-end timings. It's the 'one change' which muddies the waters. Direct services to more HS destinations beyond Brussels and Paris (such as Amsterdam, Cologne or Frankfurt) will be able to compete directly with airlines on a level playing field.

 

[starrymarkb]

The fact that there are still frequent flights between SE England airports and mainland European cities that are accessible by rail from London directly or with one change suggests otherwise.

There are, but by and large they are with BA/Air France/Brussels Airlines - all of which are providing connecting feed for their Long Haul networks (ie London-Brussels-Africa, Paris-London-Australia). Most O&D traffic goes by Eurostar with some going Low cost from Luton/Stansted

 

[DiscoStu]

Noticed this mentioned on Daily Mail, but the article infuriated me for the continued, completely unnecessary war references.

That's rich coming from somebody who's first three letters of their username is "War"

 

[cgcenet]

Direct services to more HS destinations beyond Brussels and Paris (such as Amsterdam, Cologne or Frankfurt) will be able to compete directly with airlines on a level playing field.

Better ticket integration would also help, even without direct services. Take London to Cologne. The change at Brussels isn't the biggest issue when going by train. The real problem is due to the two options for onward travel from Brussels, ICE and Thalys, with completely separate ticketing and no one-stop shop that sells the cheapest tickets for both.
Or London to southern France, where you may be able to buy the ticket for the entire journey from one retailer, but the Eurostar and TGV legs are priced separately; Eurostar still only sells its cheapest fares as returns, but does not do open-jawed returns, so you are penalized if you want to travel out via Paris, and back in bypassing Paris and changing at Lille.
With this sort of difficulty in booking multi-part train journeys it is no wonder many people choose to fly. More flexible through-ticketing would allow non-direct train journeys to compete much more effectively with equivalent flights.