The state of ITSO ticketing

[Muzer]

I'm interested in the current state of ITSO or otherwise smart ticketing across national rail and other UK rail networks.

From what I've seen, it's basically a load of incompatible (or in many cases, compatible technically but not compatible commercially) competing standards, few of which have particularly caught on except in areas where they're forced to by inflated fares for paper tickets (eg London).

I AM interested in smart tickets, but TOCs (at least the ones around me) don't seem to want me to be. South West Trains guards on the advertised routes with all the stations, TVMs and ticket barriers equipped, as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong), still can't read ITSO tickets (except those with Oyster readers already). CrossCountry apparently accept SWT ITSO cards where they overlap (and presumably others - do their guards have the ability to read them?), as do FGW (though they do have plans for 2015 to introduce their own). Southern apparently will introduce The Key by Winter 2013 apparently (currently it's not available around me), and currently again accept SWT ITSO cards in overlapping areas.

Are there any plans yet for SWT to actually be able to use the ITSO equipment they've so expensively (presumably) introduced to a significant portion of their network?

Meanwhile, my local bus service is removing their ability to use the local university ID cards as ITSO bus passes, causing yet more interfering cards to be present in my wallet. I'll have to buy one of those wallets that folds out into loads of sections at this rate...



Do you think there's any end to this madness, or will the whole system fail to take off (except where it's already taken off) purely due to the horrific number of competing companies aiming to have incompatible, interfering cards in your wallet?

 

[dysonsphere]

I feel that Oyster will win out in the end as it works and can be proved to work. However it has the "not invented here problem" with the Department for Transport (DfT)

 

[Jonfun]

I tried using the EMT smartcard system for a while when I moved down here. The barriers don't read it so you have to ask to be let through, it's pot luck as to whether the staff have readers (and if they do, whether they know how to use them) and the system isn't really extensive, meaning you end up having to buy paper tickets most of the time anyway. Granted, it was a good talking point with the staff - most of whom thought they were totally useless pieces of tech.

I'm not too sure where my card is now, certainly sat gathering dust somewhere - there really is never going to be an alternative to proper tickets until everyone works together... which leads me to think there will probably never be an alternative to proper tickets!

 

[HSTEd]

Frankly the DfT should just force all TOCs to adopt re-branded Oyster cards.

 

[Muzer]

The problem with Oyster is its non-standard nature, and thus its dependency on a single company as well as the (presumably high) fees paid to that company. It's not AFAICT just a case of NIH. It also, apparently, has very poor security.

 

[34D]

From another thread, I understand that the GMT card (greater manchester) has launched today, and the M-card (Metro, west yorks) is to launch soon.

 

[Eagle]

Southern apparently will introduce The Key by Winter 2013 apparently (currently it's not available around me), and currently again accept SWT ITSO cards in overlapping areas.

Some areas of London Midland use The Key (Birmingham to Worcester was where it was first introduced), and most if not all of Go-Ahead's bus companies have introduced The Key for season and carnet tickets. It's probably the most consistent use of an ITSO product in the country.

But then again perhaps the problem with ITSO is it's too broad in scope, you can do too many things with it. My university ID card is an ITSO, as was my canteen charge card until the uni realized it would be easier to put both functions on the same card.

 

[NSEFAN]

It also, apparently, has very poor security.

A certain academic at our university likes to make a point about Oyster security (and other bad implementations) in his lectures about mobile and secure systems.

 

[wibble]

I feel that Oyster will win out in the end as it works and can be proved to work. However it has the "not invented here problem" with the Department for Transport (DfT)

It won't. TfL have already started working on alternatives such as contactless card payments which is already available on London Buses, albeit without a daily price cap. For PAYG users, it seems peverse to transfer money from a debit/credit card to another plastic card to pay for a journey.

I reckon that TfL will completely remove Oyster and move to ITSO for season tickets as TOCs move to ITSO for seasons; PAYG journeys will move to contactless cards and paper tickets within Zones 1-6 will continue to be priced well above the PAYG rate.

The "not invented here problem" should've been resolved with DfT funding so that Oyster and ITSO could be interoperable from early 2010...

 

[34D]

Some areas of London Midland use The Key (Birmingham to Worcester was where it was first introduced), and most if not all of Go-Ahead's bus companies have introduced The Key for season and carnet tickets. It's probably the most consistent use of an ITSO product in the country.

But then again perhaps the problem with ITSO is it's too broad in scope, you can do too many things with it. My university ID card is an ITSO, as was my canteen charge card until the uni realized it would be easier to put both functions on the same card.

But hasn't it been reported here that a 'Key' issued by LM isn't compatible with a 'Key' issued by Southern (ie loading products of the other operator onto them?

 

[swt_passenger]

But hasn't it been reported here that a 'Key' issued by LM isn't compatible with a 'Key' issued by Southern (ie loading products of the other operator onto them?

It isn't that the cards themselves are incompatible, but that the back office systems are not linked up.

When you present an ITSO card there'll be some sort of look up process to check the card number is valid, and until every database is linked up that will fail. Question is, who is going to organise a national ITSO settlement system, for rail it would be ATOC/RSP, but do people want local bus capability as well?

 

[34D]

but do people want local bus capability as well?

Yes!!

 

[Muzer]

Some areas of London Midland use The Key (Birmingham to Worcester was where it was first introduced), and most if not all of Go-Ahead's bus companies have introduced The Key for season and carnet tickets. It's probably the most consistent use of an ITSO product in the country.

Yes - annoyingly it's The Key that Unilink bus is switching to (from the much more useful university ID cards).


Seems to me like it's still pretty chaotic, then. I'd still love for SWT's ITSO to actually become usable but I'm not holding out much hope.

 

[bicbasher]

I reckon that TfL will completely remove Oyster and move to ITSO for season tickets as TOCs move to ITSO for seasons; PAYG journeys will move to contactless cards and paper tickets within Zones 1-6 will continue to be priced well above the PAYG rate.

Oyster will still be required for discounted travel options, such as the Bus & Tram Photocard and Jobcentre Plus card as well as TfL schemes such as free travel for children, discounted travel for students and the 60+ Oyster.

 

[34D]

Yes - annoyingly it's The Key that Unilink bus is switching to (from the much more useful university ID cards).

There is no technical reason why both can't be used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oyster will still be required for discounted travel options, such as the Bus & Tram Photocard and Jobcentre Plus card as well as TfL schemes such as free travel for children, discounted travel for students and the 60+ Oyster.

There is no reason why these can't be issued in an ITSO-compatible format though. Let us not forget that the Freedom Pass works with both systems.

 

[transmanche]

There is no reason why these can't be issued in an ITSO-compatible format though.

Exactly. I understand that Oyster readers are being upgraded to read ITSO cards. At some point TfL could start issuing new Oyster cards as ITSO cards - others being replaced as they gradually 'wear out'.

 

[button_boxer]

Exactly. I understand that Oyster readers are being upgraded to read ITSO cards. At some point TfL could start issuing new Oyster cards as ITSO cards - others being replaced as they gradually 'wear out'.

I thought the argument against using ITSO in London was that it's too slow - you had to hold an ITSO card to the reader for twice as long as an Oyster, so you need twice as many gates for the same (peak) flow of people.

 

[Muzer]

There is no technical reason why both can't be used.

Indeed - that's what makes it so annoying.

I just got my The Key today (to be activated on the first of July, the same day my university ID card's bus pass expires), and it has information about Unilink on the back and Unilink and Bluestar logos. There is also no generic website for The Key, but each provider has their own website. This surprises me - I'm now concerned that should I want to use a The Key on Southern, I'd have to get a separate The Key to the The Key I use for Southampton buses! Grah! Can anyone confirm/deny this?

 

[transmanche]

There is also no generic website for The Key, but each provider has their own website.

Each 'provider' is a member of the Go-Ahead group - either directly (in the case of buses), or indirectly through GoVia (in the case of trains).

However, they don't seem to be inter-available... yet.

Can I use the Brighton & Hove key smartcard on Southern trains?
No, currently the Brighton & Hove smartcard will not be valid on our Southern trains nor will our Southern smartcard be valid on buses. However Plusbus in the Brighton and Crawley areas is available if you wish to add a weekly bus ticket on to your Southern key card.

We will be working towards this during 2013 and will provide further information on this website as to when this will be available.

Source: http://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/faq/790#t_790

 

[Eagle]

I think that may only be between trains and buses; if you want to add products from two different bus operators I think it can be done on the same card.

 

[Muzer]

This is simply astounding. They roll out a card across the nation with one, unified brand, then don't actually let you use it in other areas without getting a separate card? Complete madness! Could you imagine if you needed a separate Oyster card for bus, tube and national rail services in London that all looked identical aside from different small logos/text on the back?

 

[OwlMan]

Until someone finds an answer to the $1m dollar question* there will not be a National Smartcard with the c urrent ticket system.
No new system has been found that will satisfy both the customwers & operators.

* How does the card know which "ticket" to use if there are alternative tickets that are valid on the card?

NB
I work for a company that is currently looking for a solution in combination withn the DfT and bus & train operators.

 

[Muzer]

Can you not use the "most complete" ticket for that route once you touch in and touch out? Since you know the start and end points, would there not be an algorithm to find the closest-matching ticket on your card and "use" that (allowing for BoJ, starting and finishing short and split ticketing of course)? It doesn't seem to me like it would be impossibly hard, only something that would require a reasonable amount of thought and clever (but not computationally hard) algorithms. Can you elaborate exactly what the problem is that you're trying to solve - I've probably missed something.

 

[transmanche]

How does the card know which "ticket" to use if there are alternative tickets that are valid on the card?

That depends on whether you're just trying to 'map' the current ticketing system, or create a different one.

For example; under the current system, you might hold the return portion of a number of tickets - all of which are valid for a particular journey. But if the system was based around single tickets (costing half the price of a return), then a lot of the problem would be eliminated.

 

[OwlMan]

Can you not use the "most complete" ticket for that route once you touch in and touch out? Since you know the start and end points, would there not be an algorithm to find the closest-matching ticket on your card and "use" that (allowing for BoJ, starting and finishing short and split ticketing of course)? It doesn't seem to me like it would be impossibly hard, only something that would require a reasonable amount of thought and clever (but not computationally hard) algorithms. Can you elaborate exactly what the problem is that you're trying to solve - I've probably missed something.

A Simple example (it gets more complicated with breaks of journey and alternative routes).
If you are travelling back from London to Derby. You have 2 tickets that are valid.
1) A return portion of an off-peak return valid for 17 more days
2) A return portion of an anytime return valid for 5 more days.

That depends on whether you're just trying to 'map' the current ticketing system, or create a different one.

For example; under the current system, you might hold the return portion of a number of tickets - all of which are valid for a particular journey. But if the system was based around single tickets (costing half the price of a return), then a lot of the problem would be eliminated.

That is the problem - changing the ticket system without increasing fares for customers or reducing income for operators.

Without knowing when you are going to use the other ticket how do you decide which to cancel

 

[Paul Kelly]

Without knowing when you are going to use the other ticket how do you decide which to cancel

When the guard comes round checking tickets, he/she asks you which one you wish to use, and electronically clips/cancels it with his/her handheld reader!

Without a radical simplifcation of fares such as happened in London prior to the introduction of Oyster, using smartcards makes things more complicated rather than simpler, I think.

 

[transmanche]

That depends on whether you're just trying to 'map' the current ticketing system, or create a different one.

For example; under the current system, you might hold the return portion of a number of tickets - all of which are valid for a particular journey. But if the system was based around single tickets (costing half the price of a return), then a lot of the problem would be eliminated.

That is the problem - changing the ticket system without increasing fares for customers or reducing income for operators.

East Coast have been selling Super Off-Peak singles (albeit online-only) for half the price of returns on some flows for quite a while now. It would be interesting to see if that's affected revenue - positively or negatively. They're useful for when (for whatever reason) you can only get an Advance one-way. I've used them quite a lot; on occasions where I know I'll be away for more than a month; on occasions where I've had a lift in one direction - or simply when I know I'll be able to get an Advance for my return journey when my return plans are fixed. Overall, I've made more journeys than I would have if these Off-Peak Singles were not available.

This is where an electronic card-based system has the potential to do things that would be impossible (or at least highly impractical) with a paper-based system, allowing for products which don't exist today.

 

[Muzer]

A Simple example (it gets more complicated with breaks of journey and alternative routes).
If you are travelling back from London to Derby. You have 2 tickets that are valid.
1) A return portion of an off-peak return valid for 17 more days
2) A return portion of an anytime return valid for 5 more days.

I see your point, I had forgotten to take open returns into account.

How about keeping both tickets on the system along with an "outstanding" used ticket stored. When the five days passes, it realises it must have been the anytime one that was used - on the other hand, if you make a peak-time journey within the five days, it realises the first journey must have been the off-peak and the second the anytime. Do you think this would be feasible given the current ITSO standard (about which I know nothing)? I suppose it would be quite hard displaying this information in a way the user is likely to understand, is the only thing.

 

[34D]

Exactly. I understand that Oyster readers are being upgraded to read ITSO cards. At some point TfL could start issuing new Oyster cards as ITSO cards - others being replaced as they gradually 'wear out'.

Then 5 years after all new cards being issued as ITSO, then deactivate the MIFARE part of the system
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When the guard comes round checking tickets, he/she asks you which one you wish to use, and electronically clips/cancels it with his/her handheld reader!

Without a radical simplifcation of fares such as happened in London prior to the introduction of Oyster, using smartcards makes things more complicated rather than simpler, I think.

Let's assume that a nationwide itso system begins with a 'normal' touch in and touch out premise.

ITSO can easily do a PAYG functionality (this is obviously best off restricted to a defined area, otherwise we'd have initial deductions of £300.00 which would be silly) - so either (both ideally) of a small geographic area (merseyside, example) or the territory of a medium-distance TOC (southern, for example).

Smartcards are also eminently capable of having a ticket loaded onto them, whether this is a weekly entitlement, a 10 journey carnet, or just a simple return.

I suggest that 90% of passengers can do a touch in and 'the system' decide which of the products on the card are to be used, either because there is only one valid product on the card, or because it is obvious to decide between the PAYG wallet on the card or the systemone monthly GM ticket.

For the cards with 5 returns etc loaded on, they need to visit a TVM to select the product they are about to touch in at the gates with?

I won't go on, as I don't want to give all my ideas away (I'm currently applying for a regional role where this could be part of my duties).

 

[aleph_0]

Without knowing when you are going to use the other ticket how do you decide which to cancel

I appreciate this is something you've spent a lot of time on, but it seems clear if you want to retain the current complexity (I don't), then a method for 'activating' particular tickets for a journey is required (and even for part of the route of a ticket). Obviously, this shouldn't be essential when it's already implicit.

So, if someone hits the barriers and only has one applicable ticket, they go through. If there are multiple tickets, but one is a strictly better choice, it is automatically chosen. If a choice is required, then one should be directed to gateline staff, or a TVM/validation machine. Stand-alone validators could be either designed with a touch-screen monitor, or could be a simpler design.

Although even this system the ToCs might not like, since it might make customers finishing short aware that they still have additional validity they can use another day. But it should be balanced by the decrease risk of open-return fraud, and the ability to offer innovative ticket products, such as Carnets that actually work (see also, FCC).