London Midland Penalty Fare

[ChrisMcFall]

Hey all, sad to be posting in this section but here goes!

Travelled from Perry Barr to Birmingham New St earlier today. Ticket office was unstaffed, couldn't visibly see anyone there or just in the back office part, but the shutter wasn't down. PERTIS machine wasn't on to pay using that.

I travelled to New St and approached the gateline looking to pay. The RPI took over from the ticket seller who rang the station and they confirmed they were open, and that I should've 'Knocked on the window, as he might've been in the back doing his paperwork or something' -
Surely if the staff aren't available to sell tickets for whatever reason the window should be closed, or a 'Back in X minutes' sign should be put up?

I stated this to the RPI who didn't agree and went on to write me a Penalty Fare Notice, and explained my terms etc.

I've just got off the phone with LM CS who say ideally if the staff member isn't available at the desk, they should pull the blind/shutter down or put up a sign, and turn the PERTIS machine on.

Do you guys think I stand a chance in Appealing this? I travel to/from Perry Barr for work on a regular basis and always buy tickets or a PERTIS when the facilities are there, and have these to back me up if needed for an Appeal to show I'm genuine.

 

[bb21]

Not much ground for complaint that I can see.

The problem with not knocking on the window is how do you know the clerk is not just a couple of seconds away, perhaps gone for a stretch at the back?

How long did you wait for by the window?

 

[bnm]

So now it's a requirement to knock on the window is it?

I'd say every grounds to make an appeal. The usual earliest opportunities to purchase a ticket (manned ticket office, PERTIS) were not available.

 

[Monty]

It depends on how long you waited if at all for the ticket office clerk to return, in my opinion it isn't unreasonable to expect a passenger to wait a few minutes for the staff member to return (much like waiting in a queue for a short while). However if sometime had gone by and he/she had not returned then I could possibly see you being successful in an appeal.

Did you not think to see the guard on the train? I know it's technically not a required to seek him out but it may save you hassle in the future.

 

[bb21]

So now it's a requirement to knock on the window is it?

It is not, however it is not unreasonable to expect a passenger to draw attention to the fact that there is someone wishing to purchase a ticket, if that is his intention.

Just because there is no one immediately in front of the window does not mean that there is no one there to sell tickets.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not much ground for complaint that I can see.

The problem with not knocking on the window is how do you know the clerk is not just a couple of seconds away, perhaps gone for a stretch at the back?

How long did you wait for by the window?

I think you'll find that knocking on the window is a jolly good way to create an irate booking clerk.

 

[bb21]

I think you'll find that knocking on the window is a jolly good way to create an irate booking clerk.

I'm not sure how that is relevant.

 

[yorkie]

If the TOC says passengers should wait, then I think we have the right to know how long.

I do think it would have been a good idea to knock, but not repeatedly, but I don't think it should be a requirement.

Whatever the specifics, it is interesting that a LM employee appeared to state that the ticket clerk acted incorrectly, and yet penalised the customer for that!

But then let's not forget, Penalty Fares work on a the basis of penalising people for making honest mistakes, and work on the basis that the onus is on the passenger to prove that they are not deserving of one. An awful, flawed, and often misused, system, which I grudgingly accept may have it's place in certain circumstances, but at stations with no sign of staff, no ticket machines, and not even a working permit to travel machine.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I'm not sure how that is relevant.

It's relevant because, I believe, it won't achieve the desired effect of the clerk appearing and selling you a ticket.

 

[jb]

I wonder if the generic anti-TOC crusaders will jump on this one? I somehow doubt it since their fire is often misplaced, but I'd think they have grounds here.

Not much ground for complaint that I can see.

You might be right, but if so - that seems harsh to me. At face value this is much more convincing than much of the stuff often trotted out in dispute threads, such as "I didn't notice the TVM" or "I wanted to pay by cash". I think it faintly ridiculous to suggest that knocking on the window is a bad idea.

Nonetheless the question of how long the OP waited at the window is probably relevant as regards the reasonableness of things, as is the frequency of service. If trains are hourly (say) then there's really no excuse for the clerk to leave their post (without notice or PERTIS on) in the few minutes immediately preceding a scheduled departure. If there were 6-8 tph the OP is going to have a harder time convincing anyone they shouldn't have waited.

And whether the reasonableness of the piece makes any / much difference as to the prospects of a successful appeal is another matter. It shouldn't be, but it is.

 

[bb21]

The OP should appeal by all means, don't get me wrong. If he genuinely tried to buy a ticket and believed that there was no one there, then I don't think he has particularly done anything wrong.

The difficulty is how can he prove that there was no one there to sell a ticket. The ticket office clerk was adamant that he was there or thereabouts always available. There was no evidence to suggest that the ticket office was closed as the shutters were never down. The problem is that even the OP cannot say with 100% certainty that there was no one there. If he had waited for a few minutes then that could possibly be an excuse, but did he?

When I said "Not much ground for complaint that I can see" in an earlier post, it is not because I did not believe that the OP might have been very harshly treated or potentially had a case, but that I cannot see any solid evidence he can produce that can help him overturn the Penalty Fare.

It's relevant because, I believe, it won't achieve the desired effect of the clerk appearing and selling you a ticket.

Then that is a line of defence that can be used. Without doing it, he doesn't have that line of defence. If a clerk appears in an irate state and starts being rude to a passenger, then that is a perfectly legitimate ground for complaint.

 

[Harlesden]

So now it's a requirement to knock on the window is it?

I'd say every grounds to make an appeal. The usual earliest opportunities to purchase a ticket (manned ticket office, PERTIS) were not available.

So if you went into a small convenience store and there was nobody actually at the counter, would you simply stand there in silence or would you just walk out? To me, common sense suggests you would call out. You cannot really call through a ticket office window and so knocking on the window is equally common sense.
My personal opinion is that the OP has absolutely no grounds for complaint

 

[Starmill]

I think you'll find that knocking on the window is a jolly good way to create an irate booking clerk.

Indeed. I would never knock, its just not worth the risk!

At face value this is much more convincing than much of the stuff often trotted out in dispute threads, such as "I didn't notice the TVM" or "I wanted to pay by cash". I think it faintly ridiculous to suggest that knocking on the window is a bad idea.

I think its faintly ridiculous to suggest that "I wanted to pay by cash" is a weak excuse - presumably in a situation where there was a card-only TVM and no staff? A far stronger case than here.

 

[bb21]

Indeed. I would never knock, its just not worth the risk!

While this may well be the case with some clerks, I have yet to encounter one who gets annoyed by it. At best this suggests that it varies and one shouldn't make assumptions.

Some ticket offices can be fairly quiet for some periods during the day, even at larger stations, and ticket office clerks might have other duties in addition to sitting at the ticket window depending on their job description. During those times, some would be grateful if passengers make their presence known.

 

[transportphoto]

Some ticket offices can be fairly quiet for some periods during the day, even at larger stations, and ticket office clerks might have other duties in addition to sitting at the ticket window depending on their job description. During those times, some would be grateful if passengers make their presence known.

I'd argue in this case that there should be a preprepared notice in the window that requests customers to make their presence known by way of knocking on the window.

TP

 

[bb21]

I'd argue in this case that there should be a preprepared notice in the window that requests customers to make their presence known by way of knocking on the window.

TP

Ideally, yes, especially if the clerk is away from the office, say, doing something on the platform.

However as I said earlier, by not doing so, the OP cannot be certain that the clerk is not just a few yards away, ready to serve him immediately when needed.

Perhaps it will not be classed as an opportunity to pay if one cannot visually see the clerk (I don't have the answer), however I would think common sense would say that you make a small effort, and if to no avail then you can be sure of a solid defence.

 

[185]

Indeed. I would never knock, its just not worth the risk!

Customer should not have to. Merseyrail installed doorbells, but several of their staff actually unwired them.

Would suggest as someone suggested in a previous post a discreet photograph or preferably video of the offending booking office for evidential purposes. Staff are human and do use the toilet, and customers generally understand this, however it seems their management have forgotten this fact.

Anti-Toc Crusaders

All I need is the tights, shiny pants and "auntie-Toc" tattooed on my Cape, and that will make me the most awfully-titled superhero there's ever been. :roll:

 

[Starmill]

While this may well be the case with some clerks, I have yet to encounter one who gets annoyed by it. At best this suggests that it varies and one shouldn't make assumptions.

Indeed what I was trying to get across: chances are it's OK to knock, but just how wrong it can go is the point... depending on what one asks for.

 

[jb]

This thread has become incredibly good.

Please let me know of the stations where an ill-timed knock on the window causes Michael Douglas in "Falling Down" to emerge from the back room. I have got to go and watch.

 

[reb0118]

Staff are human and do use the toilet, and customers generally understand this,............

I was always under the impression that booking clerks were not allowed to use the toilet if there were passengers to be served.

.....................however it seems their management have forgotten this fact.

See above. I was informed by a clerk that he was told he was entitled to a break but only if no customers were requiring tickets/info. When he asked for clarification for the inevitable situation of what about customers who arrived during his break he was branded a troublemaker! When the clerk offered the solution that he had his "piece" at the window he was informed that this was not professional (true) & therefore not allowed.

All I need is the tights, shiny pants and "auntie-Toc" tattooed on my Cape, and that will make me the most awfully-titled superhero there's ever been. :roll:

I have been invited to a superhero party. Can I borrow your suit?

 

[Deerfold]

I was always under the impression that booking clerks were not allowed to use the toilet if there were passengers to be served.

But presumably if they go when there are no customers it's possible for a
customer to turn up at any time.

 

[sheff1]

So if you went into a small convenience store and there was nobody actually at the counter, would you simply stand there in silence or would you just walk out?

I would walk out. Although, as usual, a shop analogy has no relevance to the point under discussion

 

[RJ]

At my quiet outpost in the countryside, if I need to be away from the window for any length of time, be it for a PNB, to count the safe or otherwise, I shut my window and put up a sign advising customers accordingly.

It gets on my nerves when a window is left unattended, especially when done shortly before the train is due. Once at Denmark Hill when the window was unattended, I did knock. The clerk eventually appeared at the window. She looked at me with disdain and said "What are you knocking on my window for?" If a clerk manning the only open window wants to disappear so they can do other duties, eat something, pick their nose or scratch their backside, they should close the blind and ring control to let them know that they're unavailable to serve temporarily, so the message can forwarded to revenue staff.

The way I see it, a ticket office is either open with someone serving or at the very least, visible for the customer to approach, or it's closed. Customers should never have to knock. I wish the OP the very best of luck with their appeal.

 

[34D]

I can't believe this thread, and some of the responses in it. I for one will be very pleased to help the OP draft a letter.

A counter without a person sat behind it is surely not an opportunity to buy.

If the guard was in the toilet or having a fag break, they're hardly likely to ring control (to give control an excuse to discipline them) are they!

Ditto switching the pertis on.

The one thing I would have done, is to take a picture of the empty desk and unavailable PERTIS.

 

[cuccir]

I can't believe this thread, and some of the responses in it. I for one will be very pleased to help the OP draft a letter.

A counter without a person sat behind it is surely not an opportunity to buy.

If the guard was in the toilet or having a fag break, they're hardly likely to ring control (to give control an excuse to discipline them) are they!

Ditto switching the pertis on.

The one thing I would have done, is to take a picture of the empty desk and unavailable PERTIS.

I broadly agree with this. I would run with the fact that whatever else could have been done by the OP, he/she did what they did. Hopefully they've now had a chance to reflect on whether they could have waited longer and/or taken a different course of action!

With that in mind, to the OP. I'd emphasise what you did in order to buy a ticket, and the presumptions/expectations that you made at the time.

Of course, it is to expected that staff might not always be at the window if they are working, and no-one is saying that someone should sit there indefinitely if they are the only person working: there will be times when there are other things to do, or personal breaks to take. But this thread is better off waiting now for the OP to respond, rather than attempting to argue the 'best' or 'most reasonable' course of action in this case.

 

[ChrisMcFall]

Hey all, thanks for the advice. I took it on board and wrote my letter to the appeals service, emphasising times I got there, waited, and the time before the next train (At a 2TPH local station)

I'm pleased to say that my appeal was successful. I've learnt a lot from this experience, and in the future I will certainly take on board advice about photographing the ticket office if a similar experience happens, then seeking out the guard on board.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

 

[island]

Thanks for coming back, and glad to hear common sense has prevailed.

 

[ChrisMcFall]

Haha thankfully yes. It was interesting to be dealt with by the RPI to see how it all worked I suppose. I understand they have to take a firm approach across the board especially from stations such as Perry Barr where I can imagine a lot of students may try and hop the train.

I contacted LM to see if they have any plans for a TVM at the station but sadly they're not planning to, but I know a couple of the stations on that line have them so far.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although now I've been sent a £20 admin fee because I didn't pay the £2 fare before the date the fine 'ran out', which meant my fine was still active..whoops, learnt a lesson here!

 

[jkdd77]

I'm not convinced they can enforce the £20 as an admin fee, given that:
1) there is no statutory or contractual basis for payment of the 'admin fee', it does not represent their loss actual loss from sending one automated letter, and non-payment of the admin fee would be purely a 'civil matter';
2) the upheld appeal quashed the PF and implicitly acknowledged that:
i) under the circumstances, there was no prior opportunity to pay, and;
ii) that there was no intent to evade the fare due;
3) clearly, the fare is due at the time of travel and not later, but, given the above, the passenger did actively attempt to pay the correct fare at the first opportunity at the time of travel, and it is not the passenger's fault that the offered fare was refused, so any prosecution, under byelaw 18 or otherwise, would be unlikely to succeed.

However, the OP may have to decide whether it's worth the hassle, stress and worry of potentially being prosecuted for the sake of not paying £20.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think you should be charging them a £20 admin fee for the hassle they've put you through. Perhaps it will cancel out with the one they're trying to levy.

(On a less just but more serious note, paying their fee will be the easiest and safest way to end all this)