unadvertised first class

[dvboy]

I know this has come up before, that if a train is not advertised in the timetable as having first class, but the train does have a first class zone, that is therefore declassified? Is this documented anywhere?

This morning a 350/1 ran the 0919 Wolverhampton-Walsall train which is not advertised as having First Class.

London Midland disagreed with me on Twitter over this.

 

[cuccir]

I don't think that this is documented anywhere. John Morris states in this thread that he received a written confirmation from FCC that unadvertised first class could be treated as a declassified - you might get a more considered approach from emailing London Midland perhaps?

 

[sonic2009]

Is this train always a 350? or normally a 323?

 

[dvboy]

It would normally be a 323, but has been 350 on a few occasions recently

 

[34D]

Each TOC can make their own decisions.

Most TOC have decided that it is auto-declassified. I believe members of this forum have letters from FCC, Northern Rail, and possibly others.

NXEA when they existed were of the opinion that an excess was payable.

 

[sonic2009]

Each TOC can make their own decisions.

Most TOC have decided that it is auto-declassified. I believe members of this forum have letters from FCC, Northern Rail, and possibly others.

NXEA when they existed were of the opinion that an excess was payable.

If London Midland say that it's up to the conductor, then any reasonable conductor would not be able to charge someone for sitting in 1st Class, if the train timetable show's that the train is STD class only.

If someone was to charge someone, how would you do this for example between Birmingham & Walsall when no 1st class fares exist.

It may be worth a letter to London Midland to clarify the situation, rather than over Twitter.

 

[transportphoto]

Greater Anglia are still of the opinion that an excess is payable.

 

[bb21]

If someone was to charge someone, how would you do this for example between Birmingham & Walsall when no 1st class fares exist.

If NXEA's opinion were anything to go by, you would be charged the Weekend First.

 

[sonic2009]

If NXEA's opinion were anything to go by, you would be charged the Weekend First.

Weekend First on a Monday - Friday :P

I would like to see that happen, if a LM conductor decided to do that.

 

[causton]

Southern explicitly stay on their trains' scrolling displays (and on departure boards) that standard class ticket holders can use the first class areas when a train with first class seating is diagrammed on a service not advertising it (i.e. the Milton Keynes services are where I usually see the message scroll by)

 

[sonic2009]

Southern explicitly stay on their trains' scrolling displays (and on departure boards) that standard class ticket holders can use the first class areas when a train with first class seating is diagrammed on a service not advertising it (i.e. the Milton Keynes services are where I usually see the message scroll by)

I always thought that all Southern MKC services were 1st class and standard.

 

[bb21]

Weekend First on a Monday - Friday :P

I would like to see that happen, if a LM conductor decided to do that.

Which is exactly what happened to a forum member on NXEA iirc.

 

[causton]

I always thought that all Southern MKC services were 1st class and standard.

Oh... but, the screen scrolls past "First class is declassified on Southern Metro services. Standard class passengers may use any part of the train, including areas marked as first class." or something like that... hmm...??

Edit: Asked Southern on Twitter. A reply from them saying "First class is declassified on metro routes, other than that, it's at the discretion of the conductor" which doesn't clarify whether the WCML service is classified as a Metro services. Two replies from other people that also remember seeing the messages on the 377s as well!

 

[tsr]

Oh... but, the screen scrolls past "First class is declassified on Southern Metro services. Standard class passengers may use any part of the train, including areas marked as first class." or something like that... hmm...??

Edit: Asked Southern on Twitter. A reply from them saying "First class is declassified on metro routes, other than that, it's at the discretion of the conductor" which doesn't clarify whether the WCML service is classified as a Metro services. Two replies from other people that also remember seeing the messages on the 377s as well!

Milton Keynes Central services are West London services and not Metro services according to the official Southern Network Map.

 

[34D]

If London Midland say that it's up to the conductor, then any reasonable conductor would not be able to charge someone for sitting in 1st Class, if the train timetable show's that the train is STD class only.

If someone was to charge someone, how would you do this for example between Birmingham & Walsall when no 1st class fares exist.

Isn't it 150% of the standard class fare?

 

[bb21]

Isn't it 150% of the standard class fare?

It was indeed in BR days.

Since privatisation, some TOCs have stuck with it, some have decided to use a different multiplier (1.7 for example), and some with no explicit procedure at all.

 

[causton]

Sorry I didn't get back to you guys - Southern later said that first class was declassified between South Croydon and Clapham Junction, from then on it counts as first class apparently Guess it's kind of sensible bearing in mind people will just hop on any train from Croydon to Clapham, no matter where it's going, but I would say it should be declassified to Shepherd's Bush or Watford Junction *shrug*!

 

[John @ home]

some TOCs ... have decided to use a different multiplier (1.7 for example)

For those fares priced by CrossCountry where there is no competition from other TOCs, the multiplier has risen to more than 2.3:

LEEDS - BIRMINGHAM STNS
ANYTIME SINGLE (SOS) £56.50, 1ST ANYTIME SINGLE (FOS) £131.50. Multiplier = 2.33

But it is much less where competition exists:

LEEDS - EDINBURGH (fare set by CrossCountry)
SOS £97.00, FOS £159.50. Multiplier = 1.64
WAKEFIELD STNS - EDINBURGH (fare set by East Coast - valid from Leeds)
SOS £95.00, FOS £137.50. Multiplier = 1.48

If someone was to charge someone, how would you do this for example between Birmingham & Walsall when no 1st class fares exist.

Isn't it 150% of the standard class fare?

It was indeed in BR days.

Agreed.

After some TOCs increased their First Class multiplier, the wording in the National Fares Manual was changed:

National Fares Manual NFM 71
Valid January - May 1999

When a First Class fare is not shown for the throughout journey and First Class accommodation is available for part of the journey, a through First Class fare can still be issued. The charge is based on the Standard throughout fare (Standard Open or Standard Day) plus the difference between First Class and Standard (FO or FD minus SO or SD) fares for the portion of the journey where First Class accommodation is available.

A thick black line appeared to the left of the words I have underlined. This indicated that some or all of these words had changed from the previous version of NFM. This suggests that NFM 71 may have been the first version to drop the rule to add 50% to the Standard fare.

This new wording did not give any instruction for occasions when a First Class fare was not shown for the journey and First Class accommodation was available for the whole journey. This error had been corrected in NFM 91 by the additional sentence:

National Fares Manual NFM 91
Valid September 2005 - January 2006

If there is First Class accommodation for the whole journey and a First Class fare is not shown, add 50% to the Standard Open or Standard Day Single rounding to the nearest 10p.

This wording survived until printed National Fares Manuals were replaced by electronic versions, when the paragraph was dropped. I don't know whether a decision was made that the instruction was no longer necessary, or the omission was an editorial error.

 

[Bijgc]

Could someone clarify what is meant by a 'Metro' service - I have tried asking Southern whether 1st class seating on trains not advertised as having 1st class is de-restricted, but am being fobbed-off with rather generic answers about de-restriction being a decision made by on board staff and capacity issues etc. Perhaps if I knew what a metro service was, I would be more happy to occupy these seats if they are present?

 

[tsr]

Could someone clarify what is meant by a 'Metro' service

See Post 14 for a link to a map.

 

[Top Cat]

There are a few SWT 'Windsor Lines' services that are booked for non 'HC' Desiro units - we treat these services as 'Standard Class' only, i.e the first class is declassified.

 

[jon0844]

I don't get why some TOCs are so greedy when pricing first class (1.5x is one thing, but 2.3x?), especially on services where FC is really little more than a chance of getting a seat.

While you might pay more for that during the peaks, what about off-peak? FCC and others could surely consider introducing an off-peak FC ticket, that is only a bit more than standard (or allowing railcard discounts) and then get people to actually upgrade themselves [before travel of course]. A nice bit of extra money, without people filling up FC at peak times.

As Oyster rolls out, where there's no way to pay for FC (unless you have a FC season I guess) then this also suggests some enterprising TOC could do something akin to the 1st class supplement offered to Gold Card owners. You'd continue to travel with your Oyster and have the supplement for onboard checks (with the usual punishment for not producing it in FC).

 

[dvboy]

Well, after doing it for a while and staff being ok with it, the conductor today chucked me out because I wouldn't pay the first class fare despite me saying it wasn't advertised in the timetable.

 

[jon0844]

Well, after doing it for a while and staff being ok with it, the conductor today chucked me out because I wouldn't pay the first class fare despite me saying it wasn't advertised in the timetable.

Hmm.

At least with FCC they know the score and will always confirm you can travel on any service with no '1' marked in the timetable - and I'd hope that most, if not all, RPIs now know this.

But other TOCs seem to have different views.

 

[reb0118]

This new wording did not give any instruction for occasions when a First Class fare was not shown for the journey and First Class accommodation was available for the whole journey. This error had been corrected in NFM 91 by the additional sentence:

National Fares Manual NFM 91
Valid September 2005 - January 2006

If there is First Class accommodation for the whole journey and a First Class fare is not shown, add 50% to the Standard Open or Standard Day Single rounding to the nearest 10p.

This wording survived until printed National Fares Manuals were replaced by electronic versions, when the paragraph was dropped. I don't know whether a decision was made that the instruction was no longer necessary, or the omission was an editorial error.

With avantix on train staff cannot create a fare that does not exist in the database. So if there is no 1st class fare shown between two stations where 1st class exists (this occurs with many flows from local Fife stations to Edinburgh, Dundee, & intermediate stops) we are unable to create a 1st class fare. We can, however, conversely override a fare that does exist.

I am not sure if booking office staff can create fares with their operating systems?

 

[jon0844]

What about when a route is run with stock that doesn't have first class, but on occasion might have another class of train that does?

In the FCC case, you can just treat the whole train as standard. Whatever the official rules, that's what FCC states itself - and RPIs adhere to (bar the odd one that might not realise until told).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I am not sure if booking office staff can create fares with their operating systems?

Shere Smart can, Cubic FasTis cannot, can't say for Fujitsu Star as I've never used one.

 

[dvboy]

With avantix on train staff cannot create a fare that does not exist in the database. So if there is no 1st class fare shown between two stations where 1st class exists (this occurs with many flows from local Fife stations to Edinburgh, Dundee, & intermediate stops) we are unable to create a 1st class fare. We can, however, conversely override a fare that does exist.

I am not sure if booking office staff can create fares with their operating systems?

Yes, perhaps I should have said I was travelling through to Walsall, where no 1st class fare exists!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about when a route is run with stock that doesn't have first class, but on occasion might have another class of train that does?

In the FCC case, you can just treat the whole train as standard. Whatever the official rules, that's what FCC states itself - and RPIs adhere to (bar the odd one that might not realise until told).

That's exactly the case I'm talking about - it's normally run by a 323 which has no 1st class, and is timetabled as such, but LM have been increasingly putting 350s (and 350/1s at that!) on the 0919 from Wolverhampton.

The NRCOC doesn't appear to cover this situation, meaning it's free for TOCs to interpret as they like, and differently to others.

 

[tsr]

I have recently travelled on a number of Southern "Marshlink" services, which are worked by 171s with First Class seating. First Class accommodation is not (AFAIK) shown in the timetable for any Southern services to/from Ashford International - and not only do the guards and station staff seem to consistently know this and willingly allow any ticket holders in there, but also a lot of local people are aware. I appreciate it is well-known amongst many forum members, but I was really pleased to see this.

I do not see how this sort of clear communication cannot be applied to relevant services operated by "GoVia family" TOCs, but there you go. It is clearly not that hard to deal with (even if you have more than one class of train on part of the route, and a timetable where some trains at some stations have such provision and others don't).

Sigh!