-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
379001 - broken buttons and worn seats.
- Thread starter jon0844
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
edwin_m
Veteran Member
On 172s and 379s does the door open button only light up when the door is closed and vice versa? If so this reduces the potential confusion if the graphics on the buttons have disappeared - assuming the light is unaffected!
Nym
Established Member
Does it honestly matter, the part is broken and the train shouldn't be put into service on daily prep or driver's walkthough, let alone getting through exam like that!
Especially for what is a £10 part that requires less than an hour's labour to repair...
Just imagine it, all those happy smiling commuters stood on the soaking wet/ freezing cold platform (it is summer after all) and it is announced that "due to a broken door button the 0734 service is cancelled".
I can just imagine how happy they would be and the messages on tw@er, face-ache and the headlines in the papers the next morning.
FFS its a broken button (which still works and wont kill/injure anyone), lets get some perspective here, "shouldnt be in service", honestly. :roll:
asylumxl
Established Member
Just imagine it, all those happy smiling commuters stood on the soaking wet/ freezing cold platform (it is summer after all) and it is announced that "due to a broken door button the 0734 service is cancelled".
I can just imagine how happy they would be and the messages on tw@er, face-ache and the headlines in the papers the next morning.
FFS its a broken button (which still works and wont kill/injure anyone), lets get some perspective here, "shouldnt be in service", honestly. :roll:
What about a broken button in your cab?
Or maybe a wet seat
?
Nym
Established Member
Just imagine it, all those happy smiling commuters stood on the soaking wet/ freezing cold platform (it is summer after all) and it is announced that "due to a broken door button the 0734 service is cancelled".
I can just imagine how happy they would be and the messages on tw@er, face-ache and the headlines in the papers the next morning.
FFS its a broken button (which still works and wont kill/injure anyone), lets get some perspective here, "shouldnt be in service", honestly. :roll:
So it should be allowed to get though periodical exams in the same state?
That logic only applies on daily train prep, not on, say, 28 Day Exam...
Would it not be written up in the fault book to be fixed that night by any conciencious driver, train prep fitter, conductor or guard?
Odd to see it is the door close button. Ones i've seen on the 172s (As mentioned earlier in this thread) were the open ones.
Chris
I replied about the stupidity of cancelling a train because a door button was broke and the reply was-
Which is it then, I answered your original question which you have decided to change, again! :roll:
So what started off as a moan about the train being in service turns into a moan about the train coming off exam with the fault just to make your point appear valid?
Do you know the train has come off exam with the broken buttons or are you just making assumptions to make a point?
Who said a train needs to be taken out of service and that commuters will be up in arms because a train doesn't run due to faulty buttons?
However, to me, I see it as a serious issue and one that needs to be fixed far sooner than the next exam.
These buttons are obviously not fit for purpose and Bombardier needs to get the supplier to fix them or find a new supplier. And the TOCs need to take it seriously and not ignore the problem.
It's frankly ridiculous that you can walk through a new train and find buttons like this at external doors, internal doors, to access the toilets, to use the toilet washing facilities, to re-open the door to get out etc. It doesn't appear to be linked to how much usage a button gets, just the luck of the draw from a badly made design.
What I meant to say before wasn't the lack of writing on the door panel, but the lack of tactile writing or braille to help those who are visually impaired. As they are, you cannot feel the button to see what it does.
But even if the button still lights (and I believe they do) and some people will be able to figure out where to press, the 'button' when the cover is missing is maybe 3-4mm wide.
And I bet there's a regulation on the size of a button, which makes them non-compliant. And, as we know from the issue with the size of text on a information display, that CAN force trains out of action.
Assuming the buttons are also used on 378s, I wonder how they're managed there as I can't say I've seen any broken buttons on those yet.
However, to me, I see it as a serious issue and one that needs to be fixed far sooner than the next exam.
These buttons are obviously not fit for purpose and Bombardier needs to get the supplier to fix them or find a new supplier. And the TOCs need to take it seriously and not ignore the problem.
It's frankly ridiculous that you can walk through a new train and find buttons like this at external doors, internal doors, to access the toilets, to use the toilet washing facilities, to re-open the door to get out etc. It doesn't appear to be linked to how much usage a button gets, just the luck of the draw from a badly made design.
What I meant to say before wasn't the lack of writing on the door panel, but the lack of tactile writing or braille to help those who are visually impaired. As they are, you cannot feel the button to see what it does.
But even if the button still lights (and I believe they do) and some people will be able to figure out where to press, the 'button' when the cover is missing is maybe 3-4mm wide.
And I bet there's a regulation on the size of a button, which makes them non-compliant. And, as we know from the issue with the size of text on a information display, that CAN force trains out of action.
Assuming the buttons are also used on 378s, I wonder how they're managed there as I can't say I've seen any broken buttons on those yet.
Nym did if you bother to read either his posts or my quotes from them! :roll:
It has bugger all to do with the TOC, they contract somebody to supply the correct number of trains, if they dont supply them in a suitable state then tthat is as matter of the lawyers and I cant see them losing any sleep over a few buttons (that still work).
General points-
Does it look good? no of course it doesnt.
Is it a safety issue/ no it isnt but may fall foul of DDA legislation.
Is the problem being looked at so a long term fix is available? I bloomin well hope so.
Does it matter in the grand scheme of things? not much.
Does it show the train manufacturer/ part supplier in a good light? nope it doesnt.
Do some people moan about any little thing? hell yeah.
Nym
Established Member
It would have stopped one of my trains being put into service, then again, when I was working on the depot we had enough staff of the correct skillbase to replace these buttons within an hour, maximum.
If this is only caght on prep the night before and the labour isn't available, I can't see why it would need to be in service for more than one day...
I've known buttons failing in service, being noticed and flagged and then fixed while the train was in sidings between runs (with a 6 min turnaround on the job)
If this is only caght on prep the night before and the labour isn't available, I can't see why it would need to be in service for more than one day...
I've known buttons failing in service, being noticed and flagged and then fixed while the train was in sidings between runs (with a 6 min turnaround on the job)
Prep the night before? You havin a laugh, at my depot (stabling point actually) the trains are prepped in the morning and taken straight into service, no chance to fix things.
There are no spare trains and nobody to fix them.
At main depots I would expect things like this to be fixed but if there has been a bit of a run on them (because of a bad batch etc) then there might not be any spares available, you are aseriously saying you would not allow the train to go into service because of a few buttons?
There are no spare trains anymore so it would mean cancellations until the buttons can be sourced/ fitted.
There are no spare trains and nobody to fix them.
At main depots I would expect things like this to be fixed but if there has been a bit of a run on them (because of a bad batch etc) then there might not be any spares available, you are aseriously saying you would not allow the train to go into service because of a few buttons?
There are no spare trains anymore so it would mean cancellations until the buttons can be sourced/ fitted.
There are laws to protect the disabled specifically because in a lot of instances people or businesses might consider a problem like this to be not that important. And if you're able bodied, it's reasonable to think that.
So, if a wheelchair ramp didn't work, why cancel a bus when there's little chance of a wheelchair user needing it - and it's better one person left behind than lots.
If a blind person can't get off the train because s/he can't see which button to press, what about the 400 other passengers with perfectly good vision that sussed it out without trouble?
The problem might be relatively small, even minute, but it's still there and shouldn't be ignored.
While I am sure any TOC or manufacturer could be let off for the occasional fault, fixed as quickly as possible, if these trains are running for weeks or months on end with broken buttons then there's a problem.
So, if a wheelchair ramp didn't work, why cancel a bus when there's little chance of a wheelchair user needing it - and it's better one person left behind than lots.
If a blind person can't get off the train because s/he can't see which button to press, what about the 400 other passengers with perfectly good vision that sussed it out without trouble?
The problem might be relatively small, even minute, but it's still there and shouldn't be ignored.
While I am sure any TOC or manufacturer could be let off for the occasional fault, fixed as quickly as possible, if these trains are running for weeks or months on end with broken buttons then there's a problem.
Nym
Established Member
Then why has it not been reported by the driver or conductor up the chain to maintenance so that a mobile fitter / CPTM can go to repair this? It is a very simple job and even with full functional and circuit testing takes less than an hour.
It's not my decision, under the regs that I am given it will fail under the quality plan if certain parts are not functioning properly. So yes, I would turn around and put a stop on a unit for faulty buttons, a train failed in depot is many times better than one failed in service blocking the line. (I'm not just on about passenger operated buttons here)
No spares is not an excuse for parts like this, I can phone up a company now and have anything up to 100 of these buttons on my desk at 6am tomorow morning, they are the current run, and in production, the EAO Series 56 and Series 57 buttons are easy to find!
Even if the parts or modules are not available, then the door should be taken out of use and the button covered to prevent use or injury by/of passengers.
These days, with such modular systems, and ease of getting round the network with spares, there is no excuse!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In addition to this, there is the potential for the door interlock or safety circuits to pass through this button for proving reasons, so if this is failed in the form of a cover, how does one know it hasn't failed elsewhere and will start causing issues for door interlock circuits, and therefore, train out of service, will not move, TMS will fail to allow it to movem de-training passengers, etc. etc.
Are you living in the real world nym?
If I report a fault to the fitters they make a note of it and it joins the long list of repairs but something like a broken button would go to the bottom of the list. There is no rule in the rule book about faili a train with faulty door buttons as described here so you couldn't refuse to work the train.
As has been said already, a train won't be confined to the depot awaiting repair for something like this as it would mean its entire diagram cancelled.
If I report a fault to the fitters they make a note of it and it joins the long list of repairs but something like a broken button would go to the bottom of the list. There is no rule in the rule book about faili a train with faulty door buttons as described here so you couldn't refuse to work the train.
As has been said already, a train won't be confined to the depot awaiting repair for something like this as it would mean its entire diagram cancelled.
Probably the same world that some other rail hating posters live in.:roll:
It must be nice to live in a perfect world!
asylumxl
Established Member
Your fitters are clever, the last time I worked somewhere with defect books it was either-And "No fault found" goes to the right of everything on the list
NFF
or
TODNFF
that was written there, the later reserved for faults that only happened at speed such as whistling doors, draughts etc.
Nym
Established Member
Yes I am thanks, because that is based on what I have actually done. The handbook I work to for my fleet dictates that a failed button in certain circumstances is a stop on the train, that is, any button used routinely for a safety critical operation.
Like I said though, it's a 1 hour job, and this is why my old depot starts train prep at 11pm the night before on all stabling units before stating exam, HVAC and T/M work.
PS: I beleive you work to a different rule book to what I do...(!)
PPS: This is with a fleet utilisation requirement of almost 92%...
Probably the same world that some other rail hating posters live in.:roll:
It must be nice to live in a perfect world!
It's far from imaginary and it's also far from perfect, but for some reason my depot seems to rate maintenance small, easy things quite high up the list.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The amount of times I've seen door faults and then they've been NDFed to have the fault riased again within a week, "Unable to replicate fault in depot" is a pretty good one. But a lot of the time NDFs that grace my desk as repeat failures are in fact due to either passenger action or unavoidable enviromental issues.
Nym
Established Member
How dare you blame the passengers, they never do anything wrong and us mere railstaff should bow our heads in thanks that they see fit to grace us with their presence.
I know, we never have passengers leaning on or with heavy bags against wrong side doors that work the pushback and drop out the forward wire, causing a good 10 minutes delay while the T/Op trys to find the suspect door, in the AM peak of course.
We must of course apologise for these safety systems that prevent these fantastic passengers we have that 'pay our wages' from being dragged along the platform into the headwall. Especially when the response is, "I'm never using your trains again." usually resulting in the response of, "Good, more space for the other passengers..!"
Last edited:
asylumxl
Established Member
How dare you blame the passengers, they never do anything wrong and us mere railstaff should bow our heads in thanks that they see fit to grace us with their presence.
Do grumpy drivers like you ever get put down in the fault book? :P
Nym
Established Member
We have once seen repeat faults only occouring with one driver, that was rather fun to find out when we looked at the fault trends and reports from the CPTMs.
No, our lot just took the fault books out of all the cabs!
*sighs* Well then how are they supposed to know how a train is broke without a fault book, TCMS is not that fantastic...
I can well believe some faults are hard to find later, but a broken button? That would be like saying the lights don't work or there's no glass in one of the windows! Imagine a 'no fault found' for stuff like that.
If a technician couldn't find something like this, God help them with anything more complicated!!
If a technician couldn't find something like this, God help them with anything more complicated!!
This may be a little long winded when explained but is a story often repeated on the great northern and may as well share it whilst on the subject of fault books.
The 313s have a system built in which should cut power off at around 32-35mph when in DC mode (the max speed on the NCL is 30). But one driver put an entry in the fault book and faxed it to the fitters some years ago that the power was not being cut off in DC mode until around 45mph.
The fitters passed it on to his DM to ask him exactly how he found this out...
The 313s have a system built in which should cut power off at around 32-35mph when in DC mode (the max speed on the NCL is 30). But one driver put an entry in the fault book and faxed it to the fitters some years ago that the power was not being cut off in DC mode until around 45mph.
The fitters passed it on to his DM to ask him exactly how he found this out...
It's a shame they can't go faster between Essex Road and Old Street - quite a long stretch there (well, relatively speaking). I wonder how fast you could get to before having to slow again? [Ignoring for sake of argument any safety issues, drillbits falling through etc]
I think that's the idea, it is so much aggro to put a report in now so we dont bother, but I have to say I have only reported 2 small faults this year and both have been fixed (I keep a little black book
).Our fleet is maintained to a very high standard (dont tell them I said that
) and it is very rare for a small fault to develop into something serious, they simple cannot afford a train to sit down outside Waterloo.- Status