Fast Bedford Thameslink trains, where do they overtake?

[burty76]

With, I hope a very quick answer...

Where do fast Bedford Thameslink trains overtake stopping services?

I was at Kentish Town recently and all Thameslink trains seemed to use the Easternmost platforms, nothing used the centre pair and EMT used the western pair (without platforms).

I assume it must be somewhere north of here but where, and doesnt it cause capacity issues with EMT trains when the Thameslink switch from fast to slow lines and vice versa?

 

[causton]

In my experience FCC fast trains switch over at West Hampstead to the fast lines then run fast all the way to Radlett, where they switch to the slow lines. They presumably have enough of a gap to not slow down any EMT trains behind.

For your real question, last time I was on a fast train northbound it overtook the stopping service (that I watched go past me at St Pancras) at Mill Hill Broadway

 

[Eagle]

I was at Kentish Town recently and all Thameslink trains seemed to use the Easternmost platforms, nothing used the centre pair and EMT used the western pair (without platforms).

Usually the terminating Sevenoaks services use the middle pair. (Nominally they're the slow lines into St Pancras HL, but there are no slow services to St Pancras HL so they're free for terminating services.)

 

[burty76]

Usually the terminating Sevenoaks services use the middle pair. (Nominally they're the slow lines into St Pancras HL, but there are no slow services to St Pancras HL so they're free for terminating services.)

Thanks - I was there in the evening peak when there are no terminating services, so didnt see these platforms used.

So the fast Bedfords must switch to the fast lines between Kentish Town and West Hampstead

 

[westcoaster]

With, I hope a very quick answer...

Where do fast Bedford Thameslink trains overtake stopping services?

I was at Kentish Town recently and all Thameslink trains seemed to use the Easternmost platforms, nothing used the centre pair and EMT used the western pair (without platforms).

I assume it must be somewhere north of here but where, and doesnt it cause capacity issues with EMT trains when the Thameslink switch from fast to slow lines and vice versa?

fcc 1TXX and 2Txx services go out to the fast line at carlton road junction between kentish town ans belsize tunnel, now the 09&39 arrivals into st albans go back onto the slow line at radlett junction, and the 25&55 arrivals stay out fast line to harpenden junction. In terms of actual overtaking that can be anywhere between cricklewood and radlett.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the standard off peak, with everything running to time, the southbound overtake is usually between Elstree and Mill Hill Broadway stations. Northbound it is usually between Elstree station and Radlett Jn; if the stopper is bang on time and the fast even a touch late, the stopper will be waiting at the signal protecting Radlett Jn if the fast crosses here.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The northbound fasts (Off-Peak) are timed to pass the stoppers at Radlett and are timed on the Fasts from Calton Road Junction all the way to Harpenden Junction or Leagrave Junction. Southbound (Off-Peak) they are timed to pass the stoppers around Mill Hill Broadway/Hendon and are timed from Radlett Junction to West Hampstead South Junction on the Fasts.

Peak time varies in either direction, with some southbound workings going to the Fast Line at Bedford South Junction or Luton North Junction for example.

 

[burty76]

Thanks for the answers guys. I suppose what I was wondering is with the Bedford trains switching between the slow and fast lines does this not provide pathing issues with EMT services and potential for delays? ie a fast to Bedford switches from the slow to the fast just after Kentish Town and an EMT is on the up fast nearby....

Would it not be easier to keep all thameslink services on the slows

Ie
XX00 to Bedford, first stop St. Albans
XX03 to St. Albans, arriving a couple of mins before the XX15 departure

 

[talltim]

There are far fewer EMT service, and with proper planning there's no reason for the FCC trains to cause them any problems. If you reserved tge fasts for EMT then there would be a severe capacity problems for FCC and a lot of redundant platforms

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thanks for the answers guys. I suppose what I was wondering is with the Bedford trains switching between the slow and fast lines does this not provide pathing issues with EMT services and potential for delays? ie a fast to Bedford switches from the slow to the fast just after Kentish Town and an EMT is on the up fast nearby....

Would it not be easier to keep all thameslink services on the slows

Ie
XX00 to Bedford, first stop St. Albans
XX03 to St. Albans, arriving a couple of mins before the XX15 departure

Doesn't work, the fast trains would catch the stoppers regardless of which left first and so they would be held up by the stoppers. The only way to do it would be to reduce the level of service or add stops to the fasts, neither is desireable.

When I lived and worked down there, the MML (as it was then) services passed the Thameslink (as was) service shortly before Carlton Road, the fasts which had an EMT service catching them would go back to the slows at Harpenden (and be overtaken somewhere around Luton), whilst those that didn't went through to Leagrave Junction to swap over (and were probably overtaken somewhere around Flitwick). If either was sufficiently delayed the signaller might move them across earlier.

 

[louis97]

Thanks for the answers guys. I suppose what I was wondering is with the Bedford trains switching between the slow and fast lines does this not provide pathing issues with EMT services and potential for delays? ie a fast to Bedford switches from the slow to the fast just after Kentish Town and an EMT is on the up fast nearby....

The timetable is designed to make the best use of both lines, so this dosent happen. For example, when the Sutton service terminates at St Albans twice an hour the Bedford services which would otherwise go in front of them at Radlett Junction remain on the fast lines until Harpenden and cross over there to ensure the service terminating get adequate turn around time to and from and in the siding. The same happens in reverse when the Sutton service starts from St Albans. When these Bedford services run fast lines to/from Harpenden this fits in with the EMT timetable as these 2 trains don't need to be overtaken by an EMT service between Radlett and Harpenden.

The conflict that you specifically mention above does actually occur in the current timetable, the arrivals at St Pancras HL at xx29 ex Corby and xx59 ex Nottingham have extra time approaching Carlton Road Junction to allow for the FCC Bedford services to crossover in front, the xx18 and xx48 Northbound from St Pancras LL.

The only other issue you have with the current timetable is if the xx04 and xx34 arrivals at St Pancras HL (The 2 services from Sheffield) are late running, as these services are timed to go through Radlett Junction a few minutes before a Brighton bound FCC service crosses to the fasts, if these services are late it can cause them to be further delayed a bit if the signaller decides to put the FCC service out in front. However with the slack timings between West Hampstead and London on the EMT services it is never normally more than 1 or 2 minutes.

 

[38Cto15E]

Are the junctions at Radlett, Harpendon,Leagrave etc now high speed turnouts to assist the FCC services keep out of the way of the East Midlands Trains services?

 

[louis97]

Are the junctions at Radlett, Harpendon,Leagrave etc now high speed turnouts to assist the FCC services keep out of the way of the East Midlands Trains services?

Not particularly, all that you mention are 40mph I believe.

However all of the ones you mention have flashing yellows on approach (providing the route is set), this allows trains crossing over to take them at the highest speed allowed.

 

[westcoaster]

Not particularly, all that you mention are 40mph I believe.

However all of the ones you mention have flashing yellows on approach (providing the route is set), this allows trains crossing over to take them at the highest speed allowed.

We were told during a timing exercise the flashing yellows save 90seconds on average, compared to steady yellows.

Only Bedford south junction DF, harpenden DF and radlett DF+US have flashing yellows (DF is down fast US is up slow)

 

[burty76]

Really interesting replies, thanks

 

[Bald Rick]

We were told during a timing exercise the flashing yellows save 90seconds on average, compared to steady yellows.

That, I'm afraid, is a touch optimistic. Nearer 30 sec. And almost nothing at Harpenden as (almost) everything that uses the junction calls there.

When Radlett was renewed a few years back we did look at raising the speed, but it was going to be nearly 3 times the cost of like for like. Underbridges in the way, plus big OLE and signalling changes.

 

[38Cto15E]

Thanks for the info guys, I just had it in the back of my mind that when the MML improvements were announced that Network rail stated that the junctions would be quicker, I guess money is number 1.

Marginally off topic, what is the fastest speed on the UK main lines which trains can go from fast to slow lines etc. I assume it is somewhere on the West Coast Main Line.

 

[W230]

Are the junctions at Radlett, Harpendon,Leagrave etc now high speed turnouts to assist the FCC services keep out of the way of the East Midlands Trains services?

Heading south, West Hampstead UF>US also has flashing yellows and can be taken at a bumpy 50mph. As mentioned already, a late running southbound service will often result in a Sutton service being held at West Hampstead for a couple of minutes to allow the former to cross to the Up Slow.

 

[Eagle]

Marginally off topic, what is the fastest speed on the UK main lines which trains can go from fast to slow lines etc. I assume it is somewhere on the West Coast Main Line.

Not sure if it counts, but the turnouts at Worting Junction are at 90 mph, although the slows then drop to 75 immediately after.