IEP East Coast

[HSTEd]

If the plans were not economical, then the ROSCOs would not be suggesting it.

They are economical for the ROSCOs in that they get more life out of a zero-value written down asset.
This does not mean they are economical for anyone else.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem with that plan is all the freight and other services on the ECML that wouldn't be suitable for switching to 'true' high-speed.

I have a vision of a Pacer stopped at Adwick and a true high speed train tearing through and the Pacer falling to pieces in the process.

 

[HSTEd]

Have you ever seen the intercity sets in the off peak?? There is no way 5 car units would be enough capacity in the off peak.

Yes, and there were about a dozen passengers in the first class vehicles. Didn't see standard.

They need to be full length all day! Also if you had 2 units you would be splitting first class so you would need to provide 2 lots of catering. Again listen to the outcry from the Norwich commuters if that happened.

If this is really such a problem you could just put together fixed formation ten-car Class 444 sets, which would be superior to loco hauled formations in pretty much every respect.

 

[Dave1987]

Yes, and there were about a dozen passengers in the first class vehicles. Didn't see standard.



If this is really such a problem you could just put together fixed formation ten-car Class 444 sets, which would be superior to loco hauled formations in pretty much every respect.

I take your point and yes if they made 10 car sets they wold be fine for the Norwich services. Curious how IEP hasn't been ordered for the Norwich - London services as it is considered an intercity route.

 

[HSTEd]

IEP is ludicrously over-engineered for the Norwich route.
At ~£2.5m a vehicle compared to ~£1.5 for 100/110mph units, it is easy to see why they didn't go for the former on a route which is unlikely to ever see anything over limited 110mph running.

 

[ryan125hst]

Surely it would be possible to design a more Intercity version of the 444? I believe I am correct in saying that there is very little luggage space in the Class 444's? There is also a disused buffet counter and no kitchen.

For the London to Norwich route, given that it has Intercity type stock for many years (Mark 3's now, Mark 2's before, I'm guessing Mark 1's before that), it wouldn't make sense to downgrade the route. The Class 444's are the only Intercity style EMU that we have (other than the Pendolino's, but these are designed for 140 mph).

What they should do, in my opinion, is build a fleet of Class 444/2's to the following specification:

• Between 8 and 10 coaches long (I'm not sure how many would be needed. This should be a standard formation across the fleet).
• Two First class coaches, with a kitchen area at the front of the first coach.
• A buffet carriage, with a counter, small kitchen (for standard class food) and seats that could either be classified as First or Standard depending upon demand, as per Virgin's Voyagers.
• Between 5 and 7 Standard class coaches.
• A guards van in the last standard class coach (behind the cab).
• One toilet per coach, and luggage space at both ends of every carriage (other than catering vehicles)
• No more than two Universal toilets (one per class).
• Top speed of 110 mph.

While I'm not always happy to see locomotive hauled stock be replaced by multiple units (because I live by the ECML and always find the HST's and 225's very smooth, quite and comfortable), I feel that this is a good compromise between the two. The train is set out like a traditional loco hauled train, but it is an EMU. A Pendolino or IEP is too much for the London-Norwich route given the journey time of around two hours and the line speed of little more than 100 mph. I would have thought that this would be cheaper to build as well (it would certainly be cheaper than IEP's ), but, if done right, should still be as comfortable as the current stock.

What do you think?

Ryan

 

[HSTEd]

Why do you need two kitchens?
Surely you would have a Class 180 style catering fit with a kitchen counter vehicle thing in the middle of the train?
There is no "dead space" to fill.

 

[ryan125hst]

Why do you need two kitchens?
Surely you would have a Class 180 style catering fit with a kitchen counter vehicle thing in the middle of the train?
There is no "dead space" to fill.

I'm trying to merge the old BR policy of having a buffet and kitchen between the two classes with the current policy of having a kitchen at the front. I'm sure providing a restaurant service would be difficult on a 222 (unless standard class passengers moved to the first First class coach). The buffets only have a microwave for standard class food (as far as I know).

I suppose what would be better to have a buffet coach and then have two full coaches of First class, maybe with places to store a trolley, or areas to store drinks and snacks within the First class carriages.

 

[tbtc]

Curious how IEP hasn't been ordered for the Norwich - London services as it is considered an intercity route

The 90s in use have a better life expectancy than the HSTs that IEP is going to replace on the ECML and GWML.

The GEML isn't a 125mph route (and won't be for many a year), so IEP would be stupidly over-specced.

 

[transmanche]

Surely it would be possible to design a more Intercity version of the 444?

Of course! A TOC can for out the interior any way they want. An AC 444 (a 344?) is perfect for London-Norwich - arguing about the fitting out is just semantics!

 

[ryan125hst]

An AC 444 (a 344?)

Of course!

 

[Dave1987]

Of course! A TOC can for out the interior any way they want. An AC 444 (a 344?) is perfect for London-Norwich - arguing about the fitting out is just semantics!

I did not realise it was that easy. I thought what was on Wikipedia was how they are delivered. Seems TOC's have a lot more flexibility on what the can order. How expensive are 444's?

 

[transmanche]

I did not realise it was that easy. I thought what was on Wikipedia was how they are delivered. Seems TOC's have a lot more flexibility on what the can order.

And they can change them afterwards. For example, some of the similar class 450s operated by SWT were 'converted' to 450/5's by replacing the first class seating with 2+3 standard class seating to make 'high capacity' units. I understand that they will be converted back when the 458/5's (some of which are being converted from 460s) are all in service.