Southeastern say you must seek out conductor on board train

[district]

I recently successfully appealed a penalty fare on behalf of a colleague, and I noticed the following:

When travelling with Southeastern on a penalty fares route, you must carry a valid ticket for the class of travel required (and valid railcard if appropriate) for your entire journey. If a station doesn’t have a ticket office, or the ticket office is closed, a ticket can be purchased from the self-service ticket machine(s) at the station. If the ticket you require isn’t available from the self-service ticket machine(s), then a permit to travel should be purchased from the machine at the station. Where these are not available, tickets should be purchased at the first opportunity during the journey by finding the conductor immediately upon boarding the train. Passengers should not wait for the conductor to come to them.

I have always been lead to believe this was not the case. What do you think?

 

[michael769]

I have always been lead to believe this was not the case. What do you think?

I see nothing in the NRCoC or relevant legislation that would support such an (IMO) unreasonably strict interpretation of the rules, but then nothing that would explicitly rule it out. But overall I think they would find it hard to sell that to a court if the defendant mounted an effective defense.

I wonder how their conductors could expected to safely dispatch their train on time with a queue of passengers seeking tickets?

It sounds like something dreampt up by a manager who has no experience or understanding of the practicalities of his staff's fornt line duties.

 

[notadriver]

I always thought it was an at seat service and that buying a ticket from before boarding was optional.

 

[LexyBoy]

I always thought it was an at seat service and that buying a ticket from before boarding was optional.

Assuming you're being sarcastic, the argument for not seeking out the guard usually goes along the lines of: if you require passengers to find the guard, you'll have anything from 1 to 50 passengers wandering up and down the train looking for the guard who may well be busy with something else (being why they're not checking tickets) and annoying other passengers who feel they should be served first. Which I find reasonable.

Apologies if it's not sarcasm. As a quick browse of this forum will show, not buying before boarding is a criminal offence (unless no ticket facilities).

I think it'll just make things difficult for those who genuinely didn't see the guard on their journey, as they'll be accused of deliberately avoiding the guard.

 

[Antman]

Assuming you're being sarcastic, the argument for not seeking out the guard usually goes along the lines of: if you require passengers to find the guard, you'll have anything from 1 to 50 passengers wandering up and down the train looking for the guard who may well be busy with something else (being why they're not checking tickets) and annoying other passengers who feel they should be served first. Which I find reasonable.

Apologies if it's not sarcasm. As a quick browse of this forum will show, not buying before boarding is a criminal offence (unless no ticket facilities).

I think it'll just make things difficult for those who genuinely didn't see the guard on their journey, as they'll be accused of deliberately avoiding the guard.

That is pretty much what a guard on a SET told me, that's why they come to you and not the other way round

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder how that's supposed to work on busy services where getting through the train to the guard might be a bit difficult...

 

[bnm]

And what about services which are operated by 465/466 Networkers working in multiple?

How do you seek out the guard when he may be in another unit? Are you expected to up sticks and move to the next unit at the earliest opportunity? What if there are three units working in multiple? Up sticks a second time?

Totally stupid to insist that passengers must seek out the guard, who, it must be remembered, does not have the primary role of retailing tickets.

 

[Bill Badger]

I wonder how that's supposed to work on busy services where getting through the train to the guard might be a bit difficult...

... and when you have suitcases, a push chair, bicycle, elderly aunt etc.

Presumably you're supposed to lug those through the train with you in search of the guard. Otherwise, he will too busy dealing with reports of a whole host of unattended items that folk heading off in search of tickets have left behind.

 

[Antman]

And what about services which are operated by 465/466 Networkers working in multiple?

How do you seek out the guard when he may be in another unit? Are you expected to up sticks and move to the next unit at the earliest opportunity? What if there are three units working in multiple? Up sticks a second time?

Totally stupid to insist that passengers must seek out the guard, who, it must be remembered, does not have the primary role of retailing tickets.

Stupid indeed and totally impractical.

On the Medway Valley line in the morning there are often two 'guards' selling tickets as most stations don't have ticket selling facilities and one guard would struggle to do a busy train single handed............I can just imagine the chaos if passengers got on board and went looking for him/her

 

[SETCommuter]

So, do I need to seek out a Conductor if the only person on the tannoy introduces himself as the Guard or the On-Board Manager ? Are there numerous people working on-board ?

What if the conductor got off the train to help a passenger and the train left the station ? How would I find him then ?

 

[maniacmartin]

What if the conductor got off the train to help a passenger and the train left the station ? How would I find him then ?

You actually made me laugh.

 

[benk1342]

Notice that they say "should", not "must", suggesting that they know that it is not a requirement.

 

[beeza1]

I contacted XC a while ago asking them to quote the relevant regulation that states you must seek out the guard/conductor to buy a ticket, as doing so could prevent you getting a seat or cause problems if there are a large number of people wanting tickets, their response was :-

"It is not strictly documented that you have to approach the guard, this is more of a recommendation as this will help the guard make their decision as to whether a customer has genuinely been unable to purchase a ticket at this point, or if they are trying to avoid paying the fare."

It would appear from this statement Southeastern are giving out inaccurate information, a practice which is all too common on the railways.

 

[sheff1]

It would appear from this statement Southeastern are giving out inaccurate information, a practice which is all too common on the railways.

... and, if posts on this board are to be believed, very common indeed on SET

I am waiting for Northern to say the same. It would then be very entertaining to view the ensuing chaos as passengers boarding at all the unstaffed stations through the Hope Valley on a Saturday morning pounced on the guard and demanded tickets before the next stop. As I have mentioned before, it is almost impossible for the most proactive of guards to issue tickets to seated passengers on these trains before the crush gets such that the chances reduce to zero.

 

[northwichcat]

Is this more of an arse covering message from Southeastern? If you're just travelling to the next station then the conductor will not have time to go through the entire train so they want you to tell him/her that you want a ticket straight away.

On the rare occasion when I've travelled with Southeastern I've never actually seen a conductor walk through the train.

 

[island]

I can't seek out the conductor because trains on my line are DOO. What then?

 

[paul1609]

Is this more of an arse covering message from Southeastern? If you're just travelling to the next station then the conductor will not have time to go through the entire train so they want you to tell him/her that you want a ticket straight away.

On the rare occasion when I've travelled with Southeastern I've never actually seen a conductor walk through the train.

Its actually a common local custom on most of the ex Southern Region for passengers in rural areas to seek out the guard if they need a ticket.
On the coastway services in to Portsmouth in the morning many passengers look to see at which door the guard is so they can buy a ticket, its not uncommon for him to have a queue on the short distances between stops on the stoppers. Same on Marshlink

 

[sheff1]

Its actually a common local custom on most of the ex Southern Region for passengers in rural areas to seek out the guard if they need a ticket.
On the coastway services in to Portsmouth in the morning many passengers look to see at which door the guard is so they can buy a ticket, its not uncommon for him to have a queue on the short distances between stops on the stoppers. Same on Marshlink

Interesting - not something I had heard of before.

Another example of very different customs and practices in different parts of the country. No wonder (i) people get confused (ii) we never get a consensus when this topic is discussed on here.

 

[LexyBoy]

I can't seek out the conductor because trains on my line are DOO. What then?

You can seek them. You just won't find them.

A long time ago I spent most of a Bicester-Marylebone journey seeking the guard to buy a ticket... (crappy Chiltern TVMs).

 

[sarahj]

Often on busy trains on coastway routes where stations are only 2-3 mins appart you often never get to go though the trains as there is a queue of people buying tickets. On some 313's ive never even had time to get out the back cab for people buying tickets.
Selling a 7 day season while between Aldrington and Hove with a credit card is the fastest ticket you will ever sell, 1.2 mins.

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst I have every sympathy with passengers on busy trains and the problems associated with seeking out the conductor, I've seen the other side of it too often, where one has to practically shout in a passengers ear with a megaphone to attract their attention, and then get a BS story about running for the train or "the man on the platform said I could buy on board".

There are a lot of people out there who will only buy a ticket when forced to, and will pass up any opportunity that does not involve being physically asked for a ticket. That's what "honest" posters need to remember on threads like this.

 

[yorkie]

But this thread isn't about such a person.

We had a thread where someone could well have been acting along those lines, which was closed and he was told to go elsewhere.

 

[ian959]

But this thread isn't about such a person.

I don't think this thread is about any person but rather whether a written instruction from SET is actually correct or not. Flamingo merely makes a valid point as to why SET (or any TOC) might issue such an instruction. Personally I think jcollins has it right when he says it is merely arse covering by SET.

 

[Starmill]

I 'sought the conductor' for my train this morning after boarding at an unstaffed station (nice and easy as it was a pacer)

"Hello, can I buy a ticket please?" (once he had closed the panel and the train clear of the platform of course)
"I'm afraid you can't - my ticket machine's just frozen."

 

[yorkie]

I don't think this thread is about any person but rather whether a written instruction from SET is actually correct or not.

Well, it clearly isn't correct, for numerous reasons already posted. Although SET word their instruction very generally, it is of particularly concern that gave it to someone who they incorrectly charged a Penalty Fare to. In effect, SET should be apologising, not lecturing (and certainly not lecturing incorrect info).

If some suitable wording is required (and it would need to be re-worded) for people who are in the quite different category described by Flamingo, then that's a different matter for a different scenario.

 

[Flamingo]

But this thread isn't about such a person.

We had a thread where someone could well have been acting along those lines, which was closed and he was told to go elsewhere.

It's just that reading threads like this (which occur regularly), I think that people need reminding that the passenger might have a part to play themselves in being a bit pro-active when it comes to paying for their journey...

 

[ian959]

Although SET word their instruction very generally, it is of particularly concern that gave it to someone who they incorrectly charged a Penalty Fare to.

From the OP it is not clear whether it was given to someone who they incorrectly charged a Penalty Fare to. The OP merely says that he noticed it whilst successfully defending an issued notice. Where he noticed it, how it noticed it or why he noticed is not mentioned. From what the OP said I don't believe you could make such a definitive statement. I would suspect you may be right but the OP does not make it that clear at all.

 

[yorkie]

The Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued, hence why the appeal was successful.

 

[Antman]

Whilst I have every sympathy with passengers on busy trains and the problems associated with seeking out the conductor, I've seen the other side of it too often, where one has to practically shout in a passengers ear with a megaphone to attract their attention, and then get a BS story about running for the train or "the man on the platform said I could buy on board".

There are a lot of people out there who will only buy a ticket when forced to, and will pass up any opportunity that does not involve being physically asked for a ticket. That's what "honest" posters need to remember on threads like this.

True enough but equally many people walk out of shops with goods they haven't paid for but most shops still don't treat all customers as shoplifters.

 

[bb21]

Shop analogy? Please no more.