vocational strata

[martybabes]

I have been reading a thread about mess rooms and have been, frankly, astonished at what I have discovered. Can it really be true that, if you drive a certain type of train, you cannot sit at a table and eat your lunch with railway colleagues who drive a different class of train? And yet this is what I read. And Guards and TMs are not allowed to sit at tables traditionally occupied by drivers. And sometimes you cannot even be in the same room as they are.

Quite honestly, this beggars belief. It cannot be true that such feudalism exists in a modern industry, and yet there it is before my own eyes and witnessed by (and, sadly, perpetuated by) people in your own industry. You'll be telling me next that you have to doff your cap to the Station Master and stand aside when he walks towards you.

When I read that there appears to be little communication between those in the office and those on the ground (say, at times when there is a train failure and passengers have to be rescued and decamped hours later), it all seems to become clear to me that this class division between grades of workers, different coloured collars of workers, and management is maybe what is at the root of a non-cohesive industry. A reluctance to discuss operational matters with those of a lower rank/grade or class may contribute to stymie or prevent industry efficiency.

For goodness sake, you are all working for the same purpose (presumably that of providing a safe and comfortable rapid transport experience for your paying customers [or am I on a different planet now]) and you can't even sit at the same table - or any table - and have your lunch with colleagues.

 

[W230]

For goodness sake, you are all working for the same purpose (presumably that of providing a safe and comfortable rapid transport experience for your paying customers [or am I on a different planet now]) and you can't even sit at the same table - or any table - and have your lunch with colleagues.

People can now (well on the whole they seem to be able to). I've been working on the railways for little under a year and I'm genuinely amazed at how institutionalised they are, though, from speaking to colleagues this is changing/has changed for the better. I imagine some of this will be as a result of people now being directly employed into grades rather than working up through the traditional internal jobs promotion path. I certainly don't see other staff as lesser/more important people as a result of the job they do. They're simply doing a different job on the railway, that's all.

I wonder if part of the problem in the past may have stemmed from a bit of elitism amongst the more senior driver/grades. As was highlighted on the other thread you refer to, back then you started at the bottom and worked your way up to driver, possibly by way of the platforms and then as a secondman. You then move up the links until doing the "best" work and I imagine in the past it was these people who were more likely to consider themselves top of the pile.

I was thinking about the system of 'driving links' this morning and how archaic it seems, though I guess maybe it does help to retain people at a TOC if they've taken many years to work up the links to the so called "top jobs". Personally I think a mix of work is better for all, but then I would say that, i'm new...

 

[TDK]

I have been reading a thread about mess rooms and have been, frankly, astonished at what I have discovered. Can it really be true that, if you drive a certain type of train, you cannot sit at a table and eat your lunch with railway colleagues who drive a different class of train? And yet this is what I read. And Guards and TMs are not allowed to sit at tables traditionally occupied by drivers. And sometimes you cannot even be in the same room as they are.

Quite honestly, this beggars belief. It cannot be true that such feudalism exists in a modern industry, and yet there it is before my own eyes and witnessed by (and, sadly, perpetuated by) people in your own industry. You'll be telling me next that you have to doff your cap to the Station Master and stand aside when he walks towards you.

When I read that there appears to be little communication between those in the office and those on the ground (say, at times when there is a train failure and passengers have to be rescued and decamped hours later), it all seems to become clear to me that this class division between grades of workers, different coloured collars of workers, and management is maybe what is at the root of a non-cohesive industry. A reluctance to discuss operational matters with those of a lower rank/grade or class may contribute to stymie or prevent industry efficiency.

For goodness sake, you are all working for the same purpose (presumably that of providing a safe and comfortable rapid transport experience for your paying customers [or am I on a different planet now]) and you can't even sit at the same table - or any table - and have your lunch with colleagues.

Fortunately those types are now a minority, you will get some drivers who look down at others but not many. By the way try not to judge ALL railway workers with these comments as I have just said it is a very small minority and your comment

For goodness sake, you are all working for the same purpose (presumably that of providing a safe and comfortable rapid transport experience for your paying customers [or am I on a different planet now]) and you can't even sit at the same table - or any table - and have your lunch with colleagues.

seems to be directed at all of us!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was thinking about the system of 'driving links' this morning and how archaic it seems, though I guess maybe it does help to retain people at a TOC if they've taken many years to work up the links to the so called "top jobs". Personally I think a mix of work is better for all, but then I would say that, i'm new...

Links are structured usually when there ar a lot of drivers at a depot with a reasonable amount of routes - you need links to maintain route knowledge so for example link A will do the core routes and some others, Link B will do the core routes and the other routes and Link C will be the starter/feeder link with just core routes. It is impossible to have a depot with over say 60 drivers & a wide spread amount of routes having one link

 

[Tomnick]

I'm fortunate enough to have my own personal cooking, washing and toilet facilities at work, so I've never visited a traincrew messroom, in the course of my duties at least. I've heard plenty of tales of the various methods of segregation, and what happens to he who might sit at the top table in error. However...

Outside the messroom, where the real work gets done, my experience suggests that everyone really pulls together to get the job done. Just about every Driver, and some Guards too, give a friendly wave as they pass my little signal box, and get a friendly wave back of course. Communications are carried out in a friendly yet professional manner, and there's usually the opportunity to briefly exchange pleasantries during such conversations. Drivers detained in our Down Goods sometimes come seeking a refill of their tea or similar, and I think we're all happy to oblige. It seems a world apart from the atmosphere in some messrooms - and I can't imagine a better environment to work in!

 

[driver9000]

While it may be true in a minority of mess rooms I am yet to experience it any mess room I've been in. I use shared facilities more often than not and find that everyone regardless of uniform worn talks to each other regardless of grade.

I find mess rooms are one of two types - quiet and relaxed or boisterous places full of chatter, banter and laughter.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Same here. I have never experienced it. All the tales I have heard about this happening are from BR days and while I don't dispute that there are certain locations where it probably does happen down to a small number of individuals being allowed to dominate a working environment, I would say that it is no more indicative of the railway as it is of society as a whole.

 

[TheManWho]

While it may be true in a minority of mess rooms I am yet to experience it any mess room I've been in. I use shared facilities more often than not and find that everyone regardless of uniform worn talks to each other regardless of grade.

I find mess rooms are one of two types - quiet and relaxed or boisterous places full of chatter, banter and laughter.

We have two rest rooms on one site, one is the "quiet room" and the other is the loud and boisterous rooom which is a hangover from the previous "smoking" and "non-smoking" rest rooms.

I've heard stories on some railways where staff would walk out of a rest room if a Senior Manager walks in or tries to talk to staff. Luckily where I work, all grades of staff mingle in the rest room- even if we're less "boisterous" when senior management are around

 

[Monty]

At my depot Drivers and Guards share our mess facilities and there is no evidence of segregation that the OP is suggesting that I can see. Like others have already pointed I've heard stories but these hark back to the days of BR and when this country and it's values were very different. I have used the Driver's messroom at Waterloo on previous occasions and likewise Drivers have used the Guard's messroom without any incidents or walkouts!

I really must question the point of this thread, if the OP saw something in other threads he wished to share his opinion with us why not use the original threads and not make a new one? All it looks like is that OP is looking for an excuse to criticise rail staff..

 

[westv]

So, whatever anybody says, there are some benefits from not having BR anymore.

 

[sarahj]

oh, we may have areas where your supposed to sit, but that does not mean we dont chat to each other and discuss things. Thats why our main mess room is so noisy.

 

[martybabes]

At my depot Drivers and Guards share our mess facilities and there is no evidence of segregation that the OP is suggesting that I can see. Like others have already pointed I've heard stories but these hark back to the days of BR and when this country and it's values were very different. I have used the Driver's messroom at Waterloo on previous occasions and likewise Drivers have used the Guard's messroom without any incidents or walkouts!

I really must question the point of this thread, if the OP saw something in other threads he wished to share his opinion with us why not use the original threads and not make a new one? All it looks like is that OP is looking for an excuse to criticise rail staff..

I think someone is being a little sensitive here. If I didn't know better, I would be inclined to suggest that "the lady * doth protest too much..."

The point of any thread is to highlight a situation that exists, either in theory or in practice, and to invite others to represent their own point of view upon that situation. If you are not happy with that principle, there would appear to be little point in having a forum facility. If you do not agree with a proposal, you have every opportunity to express that dissenting view and support it with your own opinion as, of course, you have done.

The other thread to which I and Monty refer is here - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=84852 - and, as far as I can tell, the posters on that thread are all rail personnel. All I am doing is making a comment on what others have seen. If you think it is a criticism of rail staff, you will soon see by reading the entire thread that there is far more criticism of the very apparent continuing segregationist practices revealed in that thread (to which I have not contributed) than appears in my original post here!

And interestingly, my thread (if I may be allowed to call it that) seems to deny the existence of the practices revealed in the other thread! So, who do you believe? I will leave it to you to decide - all I have done is highlight and comment upon what appears in this forum. It is not my fault if it is contradictory: any blame lies with those who are asserting a particular way of life exists, or doesn't...

* or gentleman