Disabled assistance on trains without seat reservations

[TUC]

Last Friday my wife, who is blind, travelled from Middlesbrough to Selby, changing at York. She arranged assistance in advance. I had thought it a little puzzling when the person at TPE arranging the assistance said that, as there were no seat reservations on the York to Selby train, someone would ring ahead from the Middlesbrough to York service to say that my wife would be on the train. Surely the issue of whether or not there are seat reservations is fairly irrelevant to the basic issue of arranging for the assistance to be in place?

The assistance was in place in Middlesbrough and for making the transfer at York. At Selby, as no staff had appeared, I assumed that someone on-train was guiding my wife off. However, the passengers goo off, the doors closed and she did not appear (and I knew she was on the train as we had spoken on the phone). It was only because I ran over to the conductor to explain that I managed just in time to stop the train from departing. After running down the platform I saw my wife behind a set of doors-and behind her was another set of passengers waiting to get off!. She had not been able to find the door control and the other passengers, for whatever reason, had not offered to reach past her and press it.

Discussing it later, my wife said that the conductor must have been aware she was travellling as he had checked her ticket and her guide dog is a good indicator that a passenger is visually impaired! However when I'd ran up to him to stop the train departing he made no reference to even being aware she was on the train.

That, and the non-appearance of platform staff made me wonder if the TPE member of staff had been correct and that there is a difficulty in confiriming assistance on trains with no seat reservations (although that would seem bizarre. I'm sue we must have arranged assistance in the past on non-reserveable trains).

Anyone know if there is an such difficulty and the reasons why?

On this occeasion my wife and a whole set of other passengers nearly ended up having the bonus of a journey to Brough!

 

[EM2]

There certainly shouldn't be. We frequently assist customers on non-reserved trains (FCC & SE HS) and always confirm to the destination station where the customer is on the train, what assistance they need and any distinguishing features (e.g. pink coat, blue hat and so on).

 

[insidetrack77]

Difficulty here is, in my experience, a lot of blind passengers are fiercely independent and can react badly to being asked if they require assistance. I think the onus was on the passenger in this case to request assistance from the conductor. I do disagree however with the original claim that assistance can only be pre-arranged on reservable services.

 

[Welshman]

I'm amazed none of the passengers behind her offered to help - if not out of kindness to her, then at least from a desire not to be over-carried themselves.

Did they just stand there and do nothing? :roll:

 

[sarahj]

Last friday I was doing services from Bognor up the arun valley. On my first train it was noted on my diagram, there was booked assistance. No one turned up at Bognor, and at Horsham a platform assistant turned up with a ramp for the booked wheelchair, which of course was not needed.
My next train had no booked asstance, of which two wheelchairs turned up, one to gatwick and one to victoria. so it was phone calls to arange assistance at these stations.

Sods law, you get the ramp out ready and someone is on the platform with one ready. You dont get the ramp out, cause they know your coming, no one with ramp on platform waiting.:roll:

 

[trainophile]

Is the point of the non-reservable situation that there is no way of knowing which coach the person requiring assistance might be in? I'm sure this could be overcome with a little organization though.

 

[TUC]

Difficulty here is, in my experience, a lot of blind passengers are fiercely independent and can react badly to being asked if they require assistance. I think the onus was on the passenger in this case to request assistance from the conductor. .

But, given my wife had aready arranged assistance in advance, why would she think she needed to say to the conductor that she required assistance?

EM2, I'm not clear whether or not you're saying that on non-reservable services there is a need for osmeone to ring ahead to say that a passenger requiring assistance is travellling. I can see why on a non-reservable train it may be helpful to describe what the passenger looks lie and where they are actually located, but surely from the original assitance booking the on-train staff and the arrvial station would know that a disabled passenger was going to be travelling and the kind of assistance they would need?

 

[sarahj]

It all depends, normally I can see someone needing assitance boarding (and I do 12 car trains), or you might see them on your run through the train, or if they are booked, we get them marked on our diagram.
We dont do reservations on our trains anyway, but a phone call saying, assistance required at station b, coach X is no problem.

The only issues I've ever had is at East croydon where they put them on right at the front, hidden by passengers, and you only come across them as you walk through the train, hopefully not too late.
One poor blind man was put on at croydon without notice and when I found him the only notice was a label on his case. There was no one to meet him at Angmering, and since he was old and not in great shape, I took him on to littlehampton where we arranged a taxi to his diestination. A hotel for blind people it seemed that was well known.

Of course some are not booked, have no obvious need, and dont ask/mention anything when you check their ticket.

The fun happens when your doing a 12 coach train and someone each in coach 3 and 11 needs help at the same station. You tell one that I'll be there to see them off,just be patient, not to worry. Keeps me fit.

 

[Anvil1984]

Northern conductors dont get sheets telling them who has booked assistance, Selby has TPE staff who should assist but also man the ticket offkce at the same time so coukd have been stuck there or it could bave been at a time it was unstaffed. As pointed out some passengers you would presume and offer assistance to get offended by the offer. As for the checking of the ticket even if the passenger have a guide dog or any other features it is very easy to remember where someone is getting off as the conductor will check aot of tickets that day.

Its very unfortunate this has happened and coukd have been potentially very distressing but these are the possible reasons behind it

 

[TUC]

Northern conductors dont get sheets telling them who has booked assistance,

That does seem to be a significant gap in having effective arragements

 

[Welshman]

As pointed out some passengers you would presume and offer assistance to get offended by the offer.

I'm afraid if in this particular instance it was a case of cause offence or be over-carried by some 20 miles, I know what I'd do.

And I'm usually quite a timid fellow.

It reminds me of the time a little while ago when I was returning home on the 2103 from Chester with the Mk.3 rolling-stock ["Gerald" to its friends]. When, on arrival at my station, I found a woman in front of me simply staring at the door and wondering where the button was, I asked if she would like me to assist. She welcomed my offer, I leaned-out of the window, opened the door from outside, and allowed her and myself off the train. Had I been fearful of offending her, the cleaners would have discovered us at Holyhead!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Staffed stations should get a daily printout telling them what booked jobs they've got for that day, but even with seat reservations it's common courtesy to contact the destination station to let them know whereabouts on the train the passenger is and what assistance they need.

What doesn't help is when Journeycare and the like book assistance for unstaffed stations, or wheelchair assistance where the only access to the platforms is by stairs...

 

[EM2]

...surely from the original assitance booking the on-train staff and the arrvial station would know that a disabled passenger was going to be travelling and the kind of assistance they would need?

They do, but when you have a twelve-car train, that has a platform dwell time of about fifty seconds, you need to know where they are. I always confirm the type of assistance, because what we're told, such as 'customer requires station wheelchair', does not always turn out to be what they need. And these are DOO services, so there is no on-train staff.

 

[TUC]

Staffed stations should get a daily printout telling them what booked jobs they've got for that day, but even with seat reservations it's common courtesy to contact the destination station to let them know whereabouts on the train the passenger is and what assistance they need.

What doesn't help is when Journeycare and the like book assistance for unstaffed stations, or wheelchair assistance where the only access to the platforms is by stairs...

In this instance TPE checked whilst I was on the phone and confirmed that there were staff at Selby until 1900 and so this does not seem to have been a factor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do, but when you have a twelve-car train, that has a platform dwell time of about fifty seconds, you need to know where they are. I always confirm the type of assistance, because what we're told, such as 'customer requires station wheelchair', does not always turn out to be what they need.

In this case it was a three car train and so should have been easier to manage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Difficulty here is, in my experience, a lot of blind passengers are fiercely independent and can react badly to being asked if they require assistance. .

I know my wife would say that she appreciates when people ask if she needs help and will politely decline if she's doesn't need assistance. What annoys her if when people jump in without asking. I agree that some blind and other disabled passengers can be grumpy. The difficulty is some of the generality of passengers are grumpy, however-when a disabled person is rudecit gets ascribed to all people with that disability rather it being seen as just that person who is being awarkward.

 

[spacehopper]

As mentioned earlier- you can book assistance but there is no system in place for Northern guards to know this. First instance we'll know blind punter is on the train is normally when we check ticket. Even then it might not be clear we are even dealing with a blind punter it is so easy to just check tickets on autopilot and not actually register who has presented ticket to you.

The closer you are sat to the guard less likely I would say there is a risk of over carrying. When ticket is presented for inspection it is a good time to ask for assistance then, as it may not be clear that the punter needs assistance.

It is extremely rare for anyone in a booking office or even at a staffed station to deal with assistance. It always seems to be just left to the guard.

I will say this out of all blind punters I come across at least 90% will get themselves on and off trains by themselves. We have quite a few regulars who travel most days. If you state you need assistance then obviously we will do our utmost to help you.

I'm sorry that in this case things didn't go smoothly.

 

[TUC]

As mentioned earlier- you can book assistance but there is no system in place for Northern guards to know this. First instance we'll know blind punter is on the train is normally when we check ticket. Even then it might not be clear we are even dealing with a blind punter it is so easy to just check tickets on autopilot and not actually register who has presented ticket to you.

The closer you are sat to the guard less likely I would say there is a risk of over carrying. When ticket is presented for inspection it is a good time to ask for assistance then, as it may not be clear that the punter needs assistance.

It is extremely rare for anyone in a booking office or even at a staffed station to deal with assistance. It always seems to be just left to the guard.

I will say this out of all blind punters I come across at least 90% will get themselves on and off trains by themselves. We have quite a few regulars who travel most days. If you state you need assistance then obviously we will do our utmost to help you.

I'm sorry that in this case things didn't go smoothly.

Thanks for your response.

As relaxed as my wife is about disability issues, I'm not sure she would appreciate being called a 'blind punter'

What I think you may not appreciate are that there are different degrees of visual impairment and so someone with a good amount of useful vision may well be happy to get on and off unassisted whereas for -someone like my wife, who can only see light and dark, despite being very independent the challenge in getting off trains lies in finding the door controls and knowing how big a gap there is.

Now I recognise that a member of staff wouldn't know how much an individual passenger can or can't see but that is the point of booking assistance in advance so that staff are aware of what support a passenger needs without having to guess. This is also the issue in terms of your comment about the passenger telling the guard they need assistance. If they've booked assistance in advance and that assistance was in place when getting on the train why would they think there is a need to advise further?

In terms of sitting near the guard, fine, but you are in the hands of whichever member of staff has guided you onto the train and so you would expect them to find an appropriate location.

 

[Anvil1984]

Now I recognise that a member of staff wouldn't know how much an individual passenger can or can't see but that is the point of booking assistance in advance so that staff are aware of what support a passenger needs without having to guess. This is also the issue in terms of your comment about the passenger telling the guard they need assistance. If they've booked assistance in advance and that assistance was in place when getting on the train why would they think there is a need to advise further?

I.

Selby has a single member of staff at any one time, they man the booking offiice as well as do customer assistance, if they are busy in the booking office they have to leave it for the train guard (no matter which company) to do when they have a queue (quite often for advance tickets which cant be done on train) and I've regularly known Selby to have one or if they have a booking for another passenger in the other direction as they have to deal with the signaller to get permission to use the foot crossing across the tracks there. Even if assistance is booked its always a good idea to ask the conductor for assistance of the train or to ask the conductor to check if the assistance has been booked (at which point the conductor can ring ahead and find out)

Its unacceptable for mistakes to happen in the circumstances but theres also reasons

 

[AlexS]

Regrettably railway staff are only human and mistakes do get made - I've certainly unintentionally left passengers on trains before. Some days however you can have to deal with 40 or 50 people in a shift and it just gets on top of you - sometimes you can get extra help but if you can't you just have to manage it - there's nothing to stop assistance being booked or spread out appropriately beyond the capabilities of the staff at the location to deal with.

I always tell the guard if I put someone on a train who has booked assistance, even if it's nothing that they will actually get involved in - if only so they are aware there is someone who may need specific help if there is an incident on board the train.

My major undoing came when I had several different visually impaired passengers request ad hoc assistance to alight without booking, plus one booked, on 2 trains within 10 minutes going to the same destination, both with slam doors, at night, while my two platforms were single rather than double manned, which I was also responsible for dispatching. Perhaps inevitably, one ended up being overcarried and as soon as I became aware I arranged for the guard to go and find them and got them a taxi to their home from the next stop.

 

[TUC]

I certainly recognise the pressure on a busy train and the difficulty of remembering multiple passengers which is why I'm all the more surprised that Northern don't give their staff a list of passengers requiring assistance on a given journey. It would surely help alleviate the pressure of having to remember.

 

[AlexS]

That's something that has always surprised me as well - I think the practice of not telling train crew about booked assistance in advance is fairly wide spread. My station gets emails about the more minor local stations' booked assistances (we are the biggest/busiest in the area, and the local stations are managed/staffed from us), and I do wonder if the intention is that we tell the train crew as they pass - however that doesn't help for journeys towards us so it can't be the case!

I always tell passengers going to unstaffed/minimally staffed locations that assistance is likely to be a step down from the train at best, made far more difficult if for example the train is full and standing. Most are already aware of that and appreciate the courtesy information, but I have had one or two curtail their journey short and take another mode of transport for the last leg or get a lift to avoid it.

 

[Flamingo]

But, given my wife had aready arranged assistance in advance, why would she think she needed to say to the conductor that she required assistance?

Well, the Guard may not know that assistance has been booked, we don't always get the sheets, it may have gone off in the pocket of the guard they have just relieved, they may not have read it, and so many people book assistance and don't turn up/ sit somewhere else that the sheets are more of a wish-list.

Given that the person requiring the assistance is the one who is going to be inconvenienced if it does all fall apart, wouldn't it be best if they increased the chances of it working by reminding the guard when they get the opportunity?

 

[TUC]

Well, the Guard may not know that assistance has been booked, we don't always get the sheets, it may have gone off in the pocket of the guard they have just relieved, they may not have read it, and so many people book assistance and don't turn up/ sit somewhere else that the sheets are more of a wish-list.

Given that the person requiring the assistance is the one who is going to be inconvenienced if it does all fall apart, wouldn't it be best if they increased the chances of it working by reminding the guard when they get the opportunity?

That may well be. My point was that the passenger could reasonably not think that was necessary.

The fact that it can be a bit of a variable feast on Northern whether the guard appears in the carriage during a journey is another issue entirely

 

[Flamingo]

That may well be. My point was that the passenger could reasonably not think that was necessary.

Up until the first time they get stuck, you mean

 

[TUC]

Up until the first time they get stuck, you mean

A
it's more that if passengers needs to advise the guards TOCs should say so when the assistance is booked and flag up the potential need on their Assistance leaflet/webpagea

 

[Flamingo]

I'm just giving my view, as a guard, that it leaves less room for error if the passenger tells the guard they are on board.