Buying a ticket at the 'first available opportunity'

[All Line Rover]

Following on from this thread, I would like to further discuss the concept of having to buy a ticket at the 'first available opportunity'.

I visited Nantwich station this morning (just before the 11:20 departure to Manchester) and it turns out there is a single ticket machine on the northbound platform (towards Manchester) which is tiny and can easily be mistaken for a phone box. There are no clear signs indicating a ticket machine is in operation (unless you happen stand right in front of it) and on this occasion the ticket machine was out of order anyway, despite being only a few weeks old. The station was fairly busy and not a single person who arrived took any notice of the machine.

At the entrance to the northbound platform there are noticeboards. These consist entirely of printed timetables and advertisements, with only a small reference to the NRCoC at the bottom. There is absolutely no indication that tickets must be purchased before travel.

Is it really the case that, if the ticket machine did happen to be in operation, anyone wishing to pay by card who boards the train to Manchester without a ticket is liable for prosecution, despite the fact that any novice traveller will be totally unaware they are supposed to purchase a ticket before boarding? If the answer is yes, this is a complete farce!

Given the Train Operating Companies hold so much power, why are they allowed to carry on with such deceptive behavior? Do they really expect people to read both the NRCoC and Byelaws before boarding, which aren't even available to view at the station? Surely the rules should be changed so that passengers are allowed to buy tickets on board (or at the very least undiscounted Anytime tickets, with no risk of prosecution) UNLESS there is a clear sign at the station stating tickets MUST be purchased before boarding?

 

[Harpers Tate]

I'm entirely with you on that. The TOCs have a free hand to make a minimal provision for purchase pre-boarding, with no definition as to what is acceptable whether it be machine type, currency accepted, queue length, anything and then effectively "fine" anyone who doesn't happen to use their minimal facility whether their reasons are (arguably) valid or not.

At Duffield in Derbyshire (a wholly unmanned station) there is a car-park style coin only machine carefully sited in a partly concealed location underneath the footbridge; a location you would ordinarily not visit unless you were explicitly looking.

This bare bones facility (which, I repeat accepts coins only) is sufficient to render this station a penalty fare station and anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

 

[sheff1]

... anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

Really ? Since when has it been a criminal offence to enter a station/train without a supply of coins of the realm ?

 

[cuccir]

Your descriptions of Nantwich and Belper reflects my experience of travelling from Seaham station, also operate by Northern. The ticket machine there is small and inside the shelter on one platform - the first time I saw it, from another platform, I presumed it was payment for a car park somewhere. There are no signs at the station indicating that tickets are available.

If these machines add an extra facility for travellers then that's fine - on the Durham Coast Line, Northern haven't stopped selling on board. However, if similar size and similarly unsigned ticket machines are being installed and then taken as an opportunity to buy, then that is a problem.

 

[ryan125hst]

I'm entirely with you on that. The TOCs have a free hand to make a minimal provision for purchase pre-boarding, with no definition as to what is acceptable whether it be machine type, currency accepted, queue length, anything and then effectively "fine" anyone who doesn't happen to use their minimal facility whether their reasons are (arguably) valid or not.

At Belper in Derbyshire (a wholly unmanned station) there is a car-park style coin only machine carefully sited in a partly concealed location underneath the footbridge; a location you would ordinarily not visit unless you were explicitly looking.

This bare bones facility (which, I repeat accepts coins only) is sufficient to render this station a penalty fare station and anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

There is no mention of the ticket machine on "Stations made easy" on National Rail's website. I've never been to Belper station before, so if I was to look ahead at the station when planning a journey, surely I would be right to assume that there were no ticket buying facilities there? After all, I could arrive by bus or be taken there in the car but have to leave by train.

If it was on the station plan, then it would be a bit better, although it wouldn't solve the problem for people who don't have internet access or who didn't check online first.

 

[34D]

Just to give another example, I've used Todmorden (Yorks/Lancs border) several times over the years.

What I think is the old (historic) ticket office, downstairs in the subway is now a cab office (complete with a card and cash TVM outside it). I therefore assumed that there was no ticket office.

Upstairs on the Manchester-bound platform there is in fact a small, inconspicuous ticket office. I only noticed this a few weeks ago. Not on the more popular Leeds/halifax platform.

Another station in WY (cross gates) is due to receive a TVM soon (so I understand from a contact) yet there are three entrances/exits and I believe the TVM location is to be outside the ticket office (so users of the other two entrances won't even see it).

 

[DJ737]

G'day

On the NR info page for Belper it states this rather confusing piece of information.

Ticket machines No

Collection of pre-purchased tickets Yes, from ticket machine

Cheers
DJ737

 

[DaveNewcastle]

First of all, is the phrase 'first available opportunity' made up? I cannot find any mention of it in the NRCoC or Railway Byelaws.

Doesn't that expression come from the more popular paraphrasing of the case law often cited which clarified Section 5 of the Regulation of Railway Act? That would be Corbyn v Saunders, in which much consideration had been applied to the meaning of "intent to avoid payment", and then testing that with the evidence of the passenger's behaviour in passing an open ticket office; it was determined that intent was demonstrated by having passed an opportunity to pay even if there was no permanent intention to avoid payment.

By applying this principle, then evidence of "intent" can be derived from a passenger without a ticket passing any opportunity to pay, and crucialy, from even the first of several opportunites.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Doesn't that expression come from the more popular paraphrasing of the case law often cited which clarified Section 5 of the Regulation of Railway Act? That would be Corbyn v Saunders, in which much consideration had been applied to the meaning of "intent to avoid payment", and then testing that with the evidence of the passenger's behaviour in passing an open ticket office; it was determined that intent was demonstrated by having passed an opportunity to pay even if there was no permanent intention to avoid payment.

By applying this principle, then evidence of "intent" can be derived from a passenger without a ticket passing any opportunity to pay, and crucialy, from even the first of several opportunites.

Yes Dave, I read it that way too.

Perhaps worth reminding people of this section extracted from the actual judgment in the Corbyn v Saunders appeal.

*403 It was contended on his behalf that, in order to prove an offence under Section 5(3)(a), the prosecution had to prove an intention never to pay the proper fare, i.e., an intent permanently to avoid payment. There is no reason for importing into the section the adverb “permanently.” It is clear on the facts that he did not intend to pay the proper fare unless and until the railway authorities tracked him down and requested payment. That is quite enough to constitute an intent to avoid payment.

 

[benk1342]

Is it really the case that, if the ticket machine did happen to be in operation, anyone wishing to pay by card who boards the train to Manchester without a ticket is liable for prosecution, despite the fact that any novice traveller will be totally unaware they are supposed to purchase a ticket before boarding? If the answer is yes, this is a complete farce!

I'm completely with you except for the bit about novice travellers. Based on my own experience (and we were all novices at some point!), I think that novice travellers' default position would be that they have to buy a ticket before getting on any train, unless someone/a sign/a website has told them otherwise.

As a first-time train user, if I arrived at any train station, the first thing I would do would be to look desperately for the place I am supposed to buy the tickets. If I couldn't find one I would look desperately for a sign reassuring me that I didn't have to. If I couldn't find a sign I might ask someone. Even then I would be nervous. But I definitely would not have assumed that I could just get on without a ticket!

I recognise that the culture in much of Northern's domain is different. But I don't think that this is innate/universal. I think it is learned.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I'm completely with you except for the bit about novice travellers. Based on my own experience (and we were all novices at some point!), I think that novice travellers' default position would be that they have to buy a ticket before getting on any train, unless someone/a sign/a website has told them otherwise.

As a first-time train user, if I arrived at any train station, the first thing I would do would be to look desperately for the place I am supposed to buy the tickets. If I couldn't find one I would look desperately for a sign reassuring me that I didn't have to. If I couldn't find a sign I might ask someone. Even then I would be nervous. But I definitely would not have assumed that I could just get on without a ticket!

I recognise that the culture in much of Northern's domain is different. But I don't think that this is innate/universal. I think it is learned.

Spot-on, couldn't agree more.

 

[yorkie]

I'm completely with you except for the bit about novice travellers. Based on my own experience (and we were all novices at some point!), I think that novice travellers' default position would be that they have to buy a ticket before getting on any train, unless someone/a sign/a website has told them otherwise.

I strongly disagree. The default position in many parts of the country is that you pay on board a bus, and you can pay on board a train so how is it any different?

The London area is quite a different kettle of fish.

If I couldn't find one I would look desperately for a sign reassuring me that I didn't have to.

It's the other way round though. Where you are, there are loads of signs warning you that you must buy before travelling. Up here, a sign saying you can buy on board is very difficult to spot. There are also some ticket machines in very difficult to spot locations (e.g. at Garforth - located on one platform only, in a hidden place, near a side exit/entrance for the car park, and would not be seen by anyone simply entering the station from the main road!)

If I couldn't find a sign I might ask someone.

But who would you ask? Passengers up here would just say it's normal practice to buy on board, and have you tried the help point at Garforth? I did, there was no answer. I use Garforth as an example but it could be almost anywhere in the country!

I recognise that the culture in much of Northern's domain is different. But I don't think that this is innate/universal. I think it is learned.

It's very different in different parts of the Country. But Northern seem to act as if Penalty Fares are in force, and have none of the Penalty Fare signage requirements, yet have their own Penalty Notice scheme which sits outside Penalty Fare legislation and they charge up to 4 times the Penalty Fare amount! Not only that but they go on about how they got the approval of various bodies, but when FOI requests were sent out, some of those bodies denied giving any such approval.

It would have been better if ALR had clarified he was talking about the situation up North, as the issue has now become confused with people down South, who have much different custom and practice, clear signage stating buy before boarding, with understandably very different views, thinking the thread applies to their situations.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Duffield:

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/banners/Route Map.pdf

Note the blue spot with yellow circle = penalty fare station.

I will qualify my earlier comments thus: I describe the actual facilities at Duffield as I saw them sometime during the summer of 2011. If they have changed since then, then I apologise. Nevertheless, the point I make is still valid for, at the time, there was only the "permit to travel" device I describe, and the station was indeed a Penalty Fare location as well.

 

[jb]

This bare bones facility (which, I repeat accepts coins only) is sufficient to render this station a penalty fare station and anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

How many threads in Disputes and Prosecutions (which is a rarefied atmosphere that magnifies and brings into focus issues relating to ticketing irregularities) are about anything remotely like this?

The answer is very very few, if any. If you actually look through the threads in D&P there is pretty much always a complicating factor. Often it's "made to left the destination station" and you can often always throw in a "forgot", a "panicked" or two as well. The simple fact is that you're largely attacking a strawman.

You can huffity puffity about hypotheticals all you like, just so long as you remember that that's what they are. Where there ARE problems with TOC rev-protection process - problems of the form that lead to disputes (that is, in the real as opposed to the hypothetical world), and I am by no means denying that there are, they are normally attributable to staff rather than to facilities or policies (although, admittedly, the latter do serve to shape the approach of staff).

It is not a giant conspiracy. They are not out to get you. It's not about "power". The TOCs are not some great malevolent force. You are more than four years old.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There is nothing hypothetical about the situation I describe at Duffield (at least, exactly as it was in 2011). It WAS equipped as I describe, and it WAS a Penalty Fare station.

It illustrates perfectly (in what is no doubt an extreme case) how the TOCs are at liberty under their rules and bye-laws to make as small a provision to collect money as is feasible and yet still operate a penalty scheme.

 

[Stigy]

Sorry if this has been said, I skimmed through this thread so far. I'm pretty sure it is in the Conditions of Carriage....Something about as soon as practicable?

 

[island]

Sorry if this has been said, I skimmed through this thread so far. I'm pretty sure it is in the Conditions of Carriage....Something about as soon as practicable?

I think, with respect, reading the thread in full will be preferable to skimming it.

 

[sheff1]

There is nothing hypothetical about the situation I describe at Belper (at least, exactly as it was in 2011). It WAS equipped as I describe, and it WAS a Penalty Fare station.

It illustrates perfectly (in what is no doubt an extreme case) how the TOCs are at liberty under their rules and bye-laws to make as small a provision to collect money as is feasible and yet still operate a penalty scheme.

I would still like to know on what basis you could be fined if you entered a train at Belper (as described in 2011) without any coins but with notes and/or an acceptable debit/credit card which you then used to purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity.

 

[island]

Do you mean fined or issued a Penalty Fare?

 

[sheff1]

Do you mean fined or issued a Penalty Fare?

Harpers Tate said you may be fined (post #2) which I first queried in post #3.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes Dave, I read it that way too.

Perhaps worth reminding people of this section extracted from the actual judgment in the Corbyn v Saunders appeal.

*403 It was contended on his behalf that, in order to prove an offence under Section 5(3)(a), the prosecution had to prove an intention never to pay the proper fare, i.e., an intent permanently to avoid payment. There is no reason for importing into the section the adverb “permanently.” It is clear on the facts that he did not intend to pay the proper fare unless and until the railway authorities tracked him down and requested payment. That is quite enough to constitute an intent to avoid payment.

Surely this is different from what I am talking about, though? In the case you quote, the individual involved would not have paid unless asked to do so. I'm not saying other's would do that. I am saying they might simply fail to spot the covert TVM at their station of origin (Nantwich), with the full intention to pay on board the train, and if for some reason the guard failed to come round, with the full intention of buying their ticket on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly. Yet despite that, they can be prosecuted for simply failing to notice the TVM at Nantwich!

I don't understand why certain TOCs (ATW, Northern) aren't able to put up big signs at unstaffed stations making it explicitly clear that ticket purchasing facilities are available and must be used if possible, or if they can't be used (e.g. pay by cash, card only TVM), a ticket from must purchased on board the train, or failing that (e.g. guard never comes round), a ticket must be purchased at the destination if the destination station has ticket purchasing facilities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But who would you ask? Passengers up here would just say it's normal practice to buy on board, and have you tried the help point at Garforth? I did, there was no answer. I use Garforth as an example but it could be almost anywhere in the country!

It's very different in different parts of the Country. But Northern seem to act as if Penalty Fares are in force, and have none of the Penalty Fare signage requirements, yet have their own Penalty Notice scheme which sits outside Penalty Fare legislation and they charge up to 4 times the Penalty Fare amount! Not only that but they go on about how they got the approval of various bodies, but when FOI requests were sent out, some of those bodies denied giving any such approval.

It would have been better if ALR had clarified he was talking about the situation up North, as the issue has now become confused with people down South, who have much different custom and practice, clear signage stating buy before boarding, with understandably very different views, thinking the thread applies to their situations.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear in this respect. It's true to say that the culture around London and the SE is different to elsewhere in the country, although I wouldn't say the culture 'up North' is much different to the SW, or Scotland.

'Up North' there is a definite culture of it being perfectly acceptable to buy tickets on board when travelling short to medium distance on regional services, even at stations such as Shrewsbury and Crewe which both have obvious ticket purchasing facilities at their entrances. For example, try travelling on the 18:25 Shrewsbury to Crewe and see how many people buy tickets from the guard, despite having been able to purchase a ticket from the ticket office or TVMs at Shrewsbury. Does the guard ever say anything? No!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Surely this is different from what I am talking about, though? In the case you quote, the individual involved would not have paid unless asked to do so.

Is it?
In Corbyn v Saunders the judgement clarifies that to walk past an opportunity to buy a ticket can be construed as 'intent to avoid payment.' And as I tried to elaborate, albeit rather clumsily, it has been inferred from that analysis of walking past an opportunity which provides evidence of 'intent', that the same 'intent' can even be evidenced by walking past the first opportunity.

This is how Corbyn is applied to hundreds of suspected instances of fare evasion daily. Any subsequent "being asked to pay later" is immaterial to the test (though does raise other issues).

 

[Harlesden]

Perhaps I am rather older than most members of this forum, but in respect of this OP, it was always the case in the 1960's and 1970's that it was COMMON SENSE to purchase a ticket prior to travel UNLESS you were travelling on one of the quieter "pay on the train" routes. Do people really need to be told that they should purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity? Demanding to see this common sense requirement actually written down in print or on station notice boards before the requirement is recognized as valid seems a little ridiculous to me.
Just as ridiculous as the fact that a modern day pavement repair requires a large sign with an arrow placed in front of the work. Do people these days really need a large red board informing them that they should walk around the works rather than continue straight ahead and falling down the hole.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Harpers Tate said you may be fined (post #2) which I first queried in post #3.

Perhaps then you disagree with my use of terminology. However, I consider any excess charge - any fee payable over and above the fare that would otherwise be valid for the journey being made and at the time it was being made to be a fine in all important respects. See (1) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine or (2) here: http://www.chambers.co.uk/search.php?query=fine&title=21st

So that would include a non-discounted fare (where a discounted, off peak or similar fare would otherwise have been valid) or a penalty. Any is both punitive and financial.

 

[All Line Rover]

Perhaps I am rather older than most members of this forum, but in respect of this OP, it was always the case in the 1960's and 1970's that it was COMMON SENSE to purchase a ticket prior to travel UNLESS you were travelling on one of the quieter "pay on the train" routes. Do people really need to be told that they should purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity?

No, not particularly. I agree it is sensible to purchase a ticket before boarding. I don't agree with what people are doing at Shrewsbury and Crewe (boarding the train without purchasing a ticket), although I also don't agree with ATW's apparent policy of never telling these passengers off until, one sunny morning, they fancy reporting them for prosecution. A nice little earner for ATW. Even more so for Northern. But I would like to clarify something I said earlier:

Is it really the case that, if the ticket machine did happen to be in operation, anyone wishing to pay by card who boards the train to Manchester without a ticket is liable for prosecution, despite the fact that any novice traveller will be totally unaware they are supposed to purchase a ticket before boarding? If the answer is yes, this is a complete farce!

By this I did not mean that passengers should have free reign to ignore ticket machines and purchase on-board regardless. I used Nantwich as a specific example because the single ticket machine, recently introduced, is easy to miss AND passengers using this station have always purchased on-board, meaning the introduction of this ticket machine is unlikely to indicate passengers that they must suddenly change their ways.

Apparently this single, obscure ticket machine (and there are many other stations where the ticket machine is even more obscure) counts as the 'first available opportunity' to purchase a ticket, and anyone ignoring this facility, despite the fact that they may not have spotted it, is liable for prosecution. I don't think this is acceptable. How is a person on the southbound platform at Nantwich supposed to know there is a ticket machine on the northbound platform which they are required to use!?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it?
In Corbyn v Saunders the judgement clarifies that to walk past an opportunity to buy a ticket can be construed as 'intent to avoid payment.' And as I tried to elaborate, albeit rather clumsily, it has been inferred from that analysis of walking past an opportunity which provides evidence of 'intent', that the same 'intent' can even be evidenced by walking past the first opportunity.

This is how Corbyn is applied to hundreds of suspected instances of fare evasion daily. Any subsequent "being asked to pay later" is immaterial to the test (though does raise other issues).

Thank you. I have removed the opening section of my post. I'm sorry I forgot to have another read of your excellent guide!

 

[185]

Following on from this thread, I would like to further discuss the concept of having to buy a ticket at the 'first available opportunity'.

I visited Nantwich station this morning (just before the 11:20 departure to Manchester) and it turns out there is a single ticket machine on the northbound platform (towards Manchester)

Although I criticise Northern Rail a lot, about their over-the-top Fail To Purchase (FTP) scheme which often treats passengers extremely unfairly, in the case of the original thread re- Nantwich, the issue was an "expired ticket was presented (to Northern staff) as a valid ticket for travel". In that case, the customer rightly was spoken to.

In terms of discretion, my view is perhaps allow one or two days out of date if it's not a repeat offender, and consider how the passenger responds to questions and explains their actions, did they try to hide the date / show ticket too fast etc... but we all work differently.

For passengers turning up to buy tickets, I do agree with your comments about Nantwich. The ticket machine is unsigned; not obvious; there is no fare warning etc - bit of a mess, which seems to be a pattern at ATW-managed stations.

 

[Qwerty133]

At Belper in Derbyshire (a wholly unmanned station) there is a car-park style coin only machine carefully sited in a partly concealed location underneath the footbridge; a location you would ordinarily not visit unless you were explicitly looking.

This bare bones facility (which, I repeat accepts coins only) is sufficient to render this station a penalty fare station and anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

Do you mean Duffield?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>

This bare bones facility (which, I repeat accepts coins only) is sufficient to render this station a penalty fare station and anyone who fails to notice this provision (because they didn't do a U-turn at the bottom of the steps to find it) and boards a train without having first paid any sum they care to into the machine and then presenting the car-park style coupon onboard is deemed at fault and may be fined.

ticket machine or PTT machine ?

as the EMT coin only machines ( e.g. Syston when it;s not broken and wrapped in bin bags) are PTT rather than tickets ...

 

[benk1342]

Apparently this single, obscure ticket machine (and there are many other stations where the ticket machine is even more obscure) counts as the 'first available opportunity' to purchase a ticket, and anyone ignoring this facility, despite the fact that they may not have spotted it, is liable for prosecution. I don't think this is acceptable. How is a person on the southbound platform at Nantwich supposed to know there is a ticket machine on the northbound platform which they are required to use!?

Based on DaveNewCastle's explanation that the "first available opportunity" rule is a case-law proxy for determining intent, I'm not sure a court would apply the "first available opportunity" rule so strictly in such a case as a hidden-away ticket machine, as walking to the platform without going out of your way to seek out the hidden ticket machine does not clearly show intent to travel without paying the fare.

I could be wrong, though, and that rule has become gospel that has got away from its original intended meaning. Case law has a way of doing that!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Do you mean Duffield?

I do. Oops! Now edited where possible.

ticket machine or PTT machine ?....

It's a Permit to Travel machine.

....at the time, there was only the "permit to travel" device I describe, and the station was indeed a Penalty Fare location as well.

Makes no difference to my point, at all.