Reserved seat departed before booked train did

[John @ home]

Yesterday, I used an Advance single ticket to travel on the 1624 Lancaster - Manchester Piccadilly 1729. I had a seat reservation in Coach E. At Lancaster, I was surprised that the 3-coach train contained Coaches A, B and C only.

When the train arrived at Manchester, it did indeed have a Coach E. Three additional coaches had been added at Preston from the 1524 Barrow-in-Furness - Preston 1637, which had called at Lancaster at 1618.

My seat reservation is clear that it is for "Coach E Seats 28 valid at 16:24 hours from Lancaster to Manchester Pic".

This combination of circumstances made it impossible for me to comply with the Advance ticket terms and conditions.

Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).

Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

When I left Lancaster at 1624 on my booked train, my reserved seat had already departed 6 minutes earlier.

When two trains join en route and both portions call at the same station prior to the joining point, it appears that at least some booking engines have difficulty in allocating seats in the correct portion of the train. My ticket was "Route AP TPE ONLY" and was booked through East Coast.

Can anyone suggest to whom I should report this issue, in the hope that the software may be amended to avoid other passengers encountering the problem?

 

[maniacmartin]

I would report it to the ticket vendor, East Coast in this case.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The problem is likely to lie with the way coach letters are allocated to train portions in the reservations system. The train concerned is the 1407 Edinburgh and 1524 Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Airport service. The entire train is allocated a retail service ID of TP8052, which, together with portion numbers, is used in the reservations system to identify the train.

The portion of the train from Edinburgh (which departs Lancaster at 1624) is assigned portion number 1, and the portion from Barrow-in-Furness (which departs Lancaster at 1618) is assigned portion number 2. I don't know how coach letters are assigned in the reservations system, but I would guess that either the letters have been assigned to the wrong portion, or WebTIS has got its portions confused. It makes sense that the higher letters (D, E and F) would be assigned to the higher portion number (portion 2), which does seem to be what has happened, but beyond that I don't know what is going on!

 

[IanD]

Great story. From the title I had visions of some sort of handcart or ejector seat.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is it possible that the 'wrong' portion went to Edinburgh earlier in the day and so when it came back it was the wrong portion of the train?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Is it possible that the 'wrong' portion went to Edinburgh earlier in the day and so when it came back it was the wrong portion of the train?

perfectly! Also the strong possibilitty that they simply got coach lettering wrong, again. This tends to happen a lot on the anglo scottish runs particularly when 2 portions from Edinburgh and Glasgow join at Carlisle. Once had an amusing time with a split ticket dinburgh>Carlisle, Carlisle>Blackpool, weardly £10 cheeper than TPE only Scotland>Blackpool Via PRE) when our booked table of 4 was the same on both tickets but at Carlisle coach B became coach E as the Glasgow unit banged on the back and we had to hurridly relocate

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
cant speek for trains from Cumbria but often train crew at the Scottish end appear unsure what coach will be what further down the line and I wonder if its some serius confusion at TPE? Another time, again splitting in Carlisle both portions came in labled A-C and noboddy was sure what was what. Thankfully I had already come down on one ticket, broken my journey and the grip decided to allow a free for all with seating as far as Preston where I thankfully got off!

 

[sheff1]

and I wonder if its some serius confusion at TPE? Another time, again splitting in Carlisle both portions came in labled A-C and noboddy was sure what was what.

There would appear to be. On more than one occasion I have boarded a northbound splitter at Piccadilly where both portions have been labelled A-C. The resultant confusion, both on the platform and after departure, was quite something.

 

[John @ home]

I would guess that either the letters have been assigned to the wrong portion

This is unlikely to have been the case. My Lancaster - Manchester seat reservation was part of a much longer Forres - Leeds journey

Club 55 Sen Disc Forres - Carlisle route Any Permitted
SNR Advance Carlisle - Lancaster route AP TPE only
SNR Advance Lancaster - Leeds route AP TPE only

My Advance ticket for the Carlisle - Lancaster leg was for the same train (1530 Carlisle - Lancaster 1623) in the correct portion (Coach B).

or WebTIS has got its portions confused.

I didn't see any others with reservation difficulties so my guess is that the problem is limited to reservations from stations where both portions call prior to joining together at a later station.

Using East Coast to make dummy Lancaster - Leeds bookings on the 1624 departure for each of the next ten weekdays, I am allocated seats in Coaches A-C on 5 days, and D-F on the other 5. I am also offered seats in Coaches D-F using East Midlands Trains, suggesting it may be a problem with the reservations system rather than the booking engine.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Perhaps the booking engines are being lazy and simply asking the reservation system something like "Give me a reservation between Lancaster and Manchester on service TP8052 on Wednesday", without specifying which portion of the train they want the reservation to be in. Which portion the reservation ends up in would then be a matter of chance. For most services, all portions leave the station at the same time though, so that wouldn't be an issue. Could possibly be a case of lazy/sloppy programming.

There are other places that two portions of the same train call at the same station at different times prior to joining at a later station. Barnham to Horsham on Southern is one that comes to mind. One portion (which generally originates in Bognor Regis) runs ahead first stopping at the intermediate stations, then a second portion (which generally originates in Portsmouth or Southampton) runs fast between the two stations prior to joining to the first portion at Horsham for the onward journey to London Victoria.

Southern offer advance fares e.g. from Barnham to Gatwick Airport (a station called at by both portions at the same time), so in theory it should be possible to do some experimenting here. Southern's website (WebTIS) seems to only offer the advance fares on the slower portion, i.e. the one that calls at Barnham first, which is always designated portion number 1. Thetrainline seems to offer them on either portion. I don't know if that's by accident or design. But I think since these are only counted place reservations, it's not going to be possible to check whether there has been a seat allocated in the correct portion of the train.

 

[embers25]

My sister was booked in coach E from Manchester Picc to Lancaster which is in the back 3 but was given a scheduled arrival for the front 3 on her booking. In the end the guard said she could sit in either bit and she elected in her seat and take a bit longer to get there...but not until she'd got very worried she'd violate the rules of her advance.

 

[voyagerdude220]

My sister was booked in coach E from Manchester Picc to Lancaster which is in the back 3 but was given a scheduled arrival for the front 3 on her booking. In the end the guard said she could sit in either bit and she elected in her seat and take a bit longer to get there...but not until she'd got very worried she'd violate the rules of her advance.

I've previously booked an Advance First ticket from Manchester Picc to Lancaster, on the 16:16 which divides at Preston. The front set goes to Edinburgh and the rear set goes to Windermere. Both sets stop at Lancaster, albeit several minutes apart.
The EC website displayed the arrival time at Lancaster for the front set, but reserved my seat in the Windermere bit. So you're unable to sit in your booked seat and also arrive at Lancaster at the intended arrival time.

 

[sgm]

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I travel on the 14:07 to Piccadilly regularly from Edinburgh and can never recall that portion not being lettered A,B and C. And it's not the first occurrence of someone getting on at Lancaster to find the same problem as the OP either so TPE must be aware of it.