Ansaldobreda Fyra V250

[WatcherZero]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/sncb-pulls-out-of-v250-deal.html

EUROPE: Belgian train operator SNCB announced on May 31 that it had decided to cancel its contract with AnsaldoBreda for the trouble-prone V250 'Albatros' high speed trainsets and seek full reimbursement of the €37m it has paid so far. It may also decide to sue for damages.

Originally supposed to be in service by 2008, finally entered service in 2012 last January services were suspended because of reliability problems and Ansaldo given three months to fix the problems, SNCF also commisioned an independent review of the class alongside the other user NS Hispeed which found:

Mott MacDonald had found 'a surprising level of corrosion' on both bodyshells and wheelsets, as well as ‘poor and haphazard’ cable routing, pipework and cable retention methods, which 'would not be expected from a competent international rolling stock manufacturer'. The consultants also felt that 'the vehicle end structure (up to and below coupler level) is not robust and is flawed in many aspects of its design', to the extent that 'it is not considered to be suitable for long term operations.'

..

The consultants concluded the trains would require extensive modifications, and in some cases partial redesign, which 'would require significant additional investment and lead to further delays', of at least 17 months. They also raised concerns over the financial strength of AnsaldoBreda's parent group Finmeccanica, which could impact on the availability of spares and maintenance support in the longer term. As a result, Descheemaecker said, the SNCB board had decided to invoke a clause in the contract providing for cancellation if the delivery of the trains had been delayed by more than nine consecutive months.

NS Hispeed is continuing to review its position and expects to reach a decision by mid-June.

Thats got to be a significant financial hit for Ansaldo if both cancel your talking 207m Euros of lost revenue and the production and design costs of the class lost and potentially damages for lost revenue and costs incurred by the former clients.

Mind you continues the long history of dubiously built Italian trains and trams.

 

[starrymarkb]

So they have gone for the Nuclear option...

I suspect AnsaldoBreda will be desperately trying to sweeten up NS over the next week or two.

 

[radamfi]

The Dutch have all but scrapped it too.

http://nos.nl/artikel/513636-ns-stopt-met-fyra.html

(stick into Google Translate to get a reasonably accurate translation)

The CEO of NS has resigned.

http://nos.nl/artikel/513652-nstopman-meerstadt-stapt-op.html

 

[jon0844]

Wow, they should make cars - sounds like they'd compete well against Fiat and its subsidiaries...

 

[hacman]

And this is all in addition to the grief AnsaldoBreda have had with the DSB IC4 stock.

Certainly doesn't look good for them securing orders in the future!

Jon

 

[jamesontheroad]

And here's the most interesting tidbit...

To serve passengers using the high speed line, SNCB has asked Thalys to step up its Brussels – Amsterdam service to 12 trains/day from December, and wants Eurostar to introduce two daily London – Brussels - Amsterdam services with effect from December 2016.

 

[Max]

Courtesy of the 'Man in Seat 61': http://www.scribd.com/doc/144924682/Dit-is-er-mis-met-de-Fyra

Some of those faults look shocking for such a newly built train, and potentially dangerous!

 

[MCR247]

And I genuinely thought Derby were bad

 

[theblackwatch]

Courtesy of the 'Man in Seat 61': http://www.scribd.com/doc/144924682/Dit-is-er-mis-met-de-Fyra

Some of those faults look shocking for such a newly built train, and potentially dangerous!

I know some new trains in the UK have had teething problems but nothing like this.

One thing I do find disappointing is "SNCB said the interim Brussels - Den Haag service via Roosendaal introduced in February would be stepped up from eight to 10 trains a day as soon as possible, and to 12 per day with the December 2013 timetable change". I would have thought that this is an important passenger route and they really need to reinstate the hourly service now.

 

[jon0844]

And I genuinely thought Derby were bad

A potential buyer of the Derby site perhaps?

Or maybe a merger?

 

[EWS 58038]

Well, in a few years time I can tell my future kids "Daddy worked on a V250".

The National Railway Museum has stated they don't want a cab car of a V250 in the collection.

 

[Harlesden]

One look at AnsaldoBreda's Wikipedia entry would convince anyone that AnsaldoBreda are something resembling a cowboy outfit with the disturbing ability to be responsible for loss of lives if one of their products falls apart in passenger service.

 

[jon0844]

In December 2011, it was reported that one of the missing IC4 trainsets planned for delivery in Denmark was found in Libya. Reportedly, AnsaldoBreda and then Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi gave Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi the trainset as a present on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of Gaddafi's revolution in 2009.

Haha! This is so funny.

Wow, to think I've directed all my jokes at Bombardier!

Can this company seriously remain in business? I mean, WHO would sign a contract with them unless they'd received one hell of a backhander (given the mention of the name Silvio Berlusconi, I presume that's how they got orders originally?). They seem totally and utterly incapable of building anything.

 

[starrymarkb]

Their parent company has been trying to offload AB for years.

Their official line of getting business is going way beyond the spec cheaper then the competition can meet the spec (in Fyra's case 250km/h cheaper then Siemens' 230km/h design - spec was for 230km/h). Of course once they have the contract it all falls apart fairly quickly - most of Europe (and North America) is now wise to their reputation.

Didn't Network Rail give them a big ECTS contract?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Their parent company has been trying to offload AB for years.

Their official line of getting business is going way beyond the spec cheaper then the competition can meet the spec (in Fyra's case 250km/h cheaper then Siemens' 230km/h design - spec was for 230km/h). Of course once they have the contract it all falls apart fairly quickly - most of Europe (and North America) is now wise to their reputation.

Didn't Network Rail give them a big ECTS contract?

I wouldn't call the Cambrian ETCS exactly "big", but it gave everybody a few headaches.
Ansaldo also did the Manchester South signalling (at Edgeley Jn) which came in well under spec (that's why Stockport still has five manual boxes).
Difficult to know why both projects were so fraught - might have been Railtrack/NR as much as Ansaldo.

Ansaldo are still in the frame for the next round of ETCS roll-out.

 

[gingerheid]

Were Ansaldobreda the people responsible for the Midlands Metro trams? I'm sure I remember reading a RAIB rport about a crash caused by the driver being distracted by a random defect in the cab, and that the report contained a lot of uncomplimentary things about the workmanship of the vehicles. Not sure if it was there or somewhere else that I read that no two trams were wired the same way...

 

[MCR247]

Yes they are IIRC. One thing that doesn't seem to change about their construction is that they still don't seem to follow any sort of plans, and therefore each vehicle is unique!

 

[starrymarkb]

As part of the scheme Centro wants a brand new fleet of trams because the older Ansaldo Transporti models have been dogged by unreliability and poor build quality.

The trams have been a figure of fun - described publicly by operator Midland Metro, which owns them, as "rubbish" and having wiring like "plates of spaghetti".

Horrified bosses had discovered each tram was built to a different design, and currently one tram has been taken out of service to be cannibalised for spare parts.

From http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/metros-rubbish-trams-up-for-sale-15863

 

[gingerheid]

Ah yes, that's the one. Thanks, and Wikipedia updated with another example of their shining professionalism.

I don't want to know what goes on in their factory.

 

[jon0844]

Bunga bunga parties?

 

[asylumxl]

Bunga bunga parties?

There is no question. This is evidently what actually happens.

 

[EWS 58038]

And it's killed.

Few minutes ago Dutch government pulled the plug on the V250.

NS / HSA now has till 1 October to come up with good plans to save it from loosing the franchise. (yes I know, but it works a bit different here then in the UK).

There is even a solid BAN on any movements of the trains outside Amsterdam Watergraafsmeer traincare (where they are stored).


4804 Nieuw Vennep by Maarten Otto, on Flickr

 

[gordonthemoron]

Eurostar North of London sets?

 

[EWS 58038]

If Eurostar comes to Holland it will be the Velaro sets. Hopefully we will get some 200 kph stock that can operate.

It really makes me angry that we spend €7.000.000.000 for 6 trains per day

 

[sarahj]

I remember reading on Todays Railways when the order was placed that they doubted if 1, they would be delivered on time. I guess that was a no. 2 after issues with the danish IC4 sets, would they work? Why am I not supprised.

Bring back a a traxx and some IC coaches. At least they worked, sort of. My last trip was to Utrecht for eurospoor two years ago (change at rotterdam). The first train that came into Brussels was an older benelux set. After a set amount of time, though there was no offical announcment, it was cancelled. After an hour sitting around we all trooped up for number 2. Came in with a trax and a sortment of many differing SNCB coaches. We left 20 mins late, (well one hour and 20 mins late) but got there in the end.

It was funny in a way to see the lack of information. In the end I was giving info out to some confused passengers, I know I work for a railway, and had a fip pass and ticket, but I'm not 100% up on SNCB practise. I was almost tempted to put on my southern high viz which I had with me for some reason and help out. :roll:

 

[eastwestdivide]

NS decision is in today's Volkskrant if you want a Dutch source:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2686...teunt-besluit-NS-te-stoppen-met-de-Fyra.dhtml

including "De NS heeft nu de concessie" = NS now has the concession.
and "dat de NS snel met een volwaardig alternatief moet komen" = NS must come up with a full alternative quickly

 

[317666]

I suppose all this shouldn't really come as a surprise - weren't AnsaldoBreda behind the T68 Manchester Metrolink trams which are already being withdrawn as they're too unreliable?

 

[gingerheid]

Hmm

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ction=edit&undoafter=558771685&undo=558774572

And my Wiki update has been removed as being "offensive against Italy" by someone that only edits articles about Italian industrialists. PR company I wonder?

 

[jon0844]

Can they do that?

I mean I know people can make edits, but can't it be restored on the basis that the information is factually correct?

Assuming it was factual and not written offensively (like saying 'well what did you expect from an Italian firm?).

 

[gingerheid]

I've put it back in, and they've tried to take the stuff about the Libyan train out so someone else has had to put that back in.

I think it's definitely a PR company or someone that works for them!