Penalty Fare at Gatwick Airport

[Seeker2013]

Hi,

I recently traveled from Shepherd's Bush to Gatwick Airport and at Gatwick airport was told that I had to pay a penalty Fare.

I used the overground from Shepherd's Bush to Clapham Junction touched in my oyster and then touched out at Platfrom 17. I then had to rush to get onto the train to Gatwick (not the Gatwick express) and was under the impression that I would get the opportunity to buy the ticket from one of the Guards in the Train or at Gatwick. Now there were no guards in the Train and at Gatwick airport I was told that I had to pay the £20 penalty fare for a £11.50 train ticket.

Now I have received a letter from Revenue Protection Support Services (www.penaltyfare.co.uk) that because 14-days have passed, now i am liable to pay £30.40 and if i don't pay this in 14-days I am liable to pay even more. What a rip-off.

I am not stupid and in no way I was trying to dodge paying the ticket. The point I have is that when I got off the the overground at platform 17 in Clapham Junction there was an oyster reader to touch out but no facilities what so ever to purchase any tickets. Also there where no signs at this platform where you touch out with your oyster stating that you need to buy the ticket before boarding the train (I even took some pictures to prove this). I later find out that you have to go all the way from platform 17 to the platform 1, exit the barriers buy the ticket at the counter and then re enter.

The thing is i used to change at Clapham Junction and hop on to the SouthWest trains serviece to Guildford and I always purchased my ticket on-board, or even at the Guildford station.

Do I have a reasonable claim here, based on the fact that there where no facilities or direction on where to buy a ticket when I touched out at platfrom 17?

Thank you for your help.

 

[rdwarr]

One question you may be asked is why you didn't purchase a ticket from Shepherd's Bush through to Gatwick. It's priced at £12.10 so would have been cheaper anyway.
Generally the rule is that you must have a ticket before travel if facilities exist to buy one. Given that other people in similar situations have been taken to court I'd jump at the chance to pay the penalty and get the affair over and done with.

 

[gordonthemoron]

considering the frequency of services between Clapham Junction & Gatwick, why did you have to rush to catch the train to Gatwick?

 

[ModernRailways]

I'm in no way an expert, but if I was in your shoes I would have paid the original £20 then appealed it.

 

[All Line Rover]

Here is the short and blunt answer. There was the facility to purchase the ticket you required at Shepherds Bush. You chose to ignore that facility. There was the facility to purchase the ticket you required at Clapham Junction. You chose to ignore that facility. You are required to purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity. You did not. Your chance of a successful appeal is slim, if non existent.

I strongly recommend you pay the £30.40 requested and put this incident down to experience. This may not seem customer friendly, as you do seem to have made an honest mistake, but if this matter escalates it could end up costing you orders of magnitude more money, time and stress.

 

[maniacmartin]

You do not have to go all the way to platform 1 to buy a ticket. There are 2 booking offices at the platform 17 end of the station - a part time one accessible from the overbridge and one that's open virtually all of the day accessible from the subway. In fact, every exit from the platforms at Clapham Junction leads to ticket machines!

You should always buy a ticket prior to boarding a train if facilities exist to do so; failure to do so is a strict liability byelaw offence, even if you intended to buy one on board or at your destination.

If I was in your situation I'd forget about the pictures you have taken and stories about trips to Guildford. In fact, these could make your situation even worse, in that it would be admitting that you regularly don't buy a ticket before boarding. That could be used against you if the TOC (Southern Railway) decided to prosecute under the more serious Regulation of Railways Act, for intent to avoid a fare.

Unless there any other extenuating circumstances, my advice would be to pay the Penalty Fare to keep this out of court.

 

[All Line Rover]

Do I have a reasonable claim here, based on the fact that there where no facilities or direction on where to buy a ticket when I touched out at platfrom 17?

Whilst most of your post, including this, is irrelevant when it comes to your chance of a successful appeal (very slim to nil), I would address this point by saying that even the most naive traveller would not assume that one of the busiest stations in the UK lacks ticket purchasing facilities.

 

[Monty]

I am puzzled why they are asking for payment after only 14 days, you should have 21 to either pay or appeal the Penalty Fare Notice. though judging by the amount requested I'm going to assume the OP has allowed the 21 days to pass without doing anything and now has had a reminder letter through the post explaining the situation and that an admin fee for late payment has been levied.

I can't add much more to what has already been said before, but I highly suggest you pay the amount outstanding and consider it a lesson in life. You had ample opportunity to pay at Shepards Bush or Clapham Junction. Arguing otherwise in court will just make you look foolish.

 

[Chapeltom]

I'd pay the penalty fare and leave it at that. I'm quite surprised you were only requested to pay a penalty fare and that matters weren't taken further, i.e. prosecution as in the eyes of some, it seems like a bye-law breach at least.

 

[Urban Gateline]

To add to what has already been posted, there are TWO Penalty fare warning posters on Platform 17, one at each end of that Platform so I am not sure how they were missed.

I believe the Anytime day single for CLJ-GTW is £10.40, therefore the Penalty fare should have been £20.80 and not just £20.

 

[yorkie]

... I am not stupid and in no way I was trying to dodge paying the ticket....

You have not been treated as if you were trying to dodge. You have been issued a higher than normal fare, called a Penalty Fare, which is a charge made under certain circumstances for a perceived honest mistake.

.... no facilities what so ever to purchase any tickets....

There are extensive facilities at Clapham Jn, but you are supposed to buy at your origin. Were there no facilities at Sheperd's Bush when you commenced your journey?

The thing is i used to change at Clapham Junction and hop on to the SouthWest trains serviece to Guildford and I always purchased my ticket on-board, or even at the Guildford station.

If there were facilities at your origin station, then you were liable to be charged a Penalty Fare - if an authorised collector had caught you - or a full Anytime fare. But discretion can be shown - that does not change what you are liable to pay.

Do I have a reasonable claim here, based on the fact that there where no facilities or direction on where to buy a ticket when I touched out at platfrom 17?.

I think not.

I'm in no way an expert, but if I was in your shoes I would have paid the original £20 then appealed it.

On what grounds would you appeal?

 

[ModernRailways]

On what grounds would you appeal?

I wouldn't, unless I knew there was an error by the RPI. However, if OP feels so strongly that they shouldn't have been charged the extra amount, there is no reason for them not to. They can only be told 'No', but they will know for next time. In fact I'm sure the TOC wouldn't mind as it will potentially stop them from trying it out elsewhere. By leaving it though and not bothering to pay the amount adds up and before you know it you're paying double the original PF.

 

[bb21]

Grounds for appeal? None I can see.

Why do you think that you do not need to buy a ticket before boarding? You were very lucky when you travelled to Guildford with SWT, as you would almost certainly have been charged a Penalty Fare had you encountered an RPI rather than just the guard. Have a read of the text at the back of the tickets you were sold onboard SWT. You should find clear information regarding Penalty Fares in red.

Pay the Penalty Fare before it gets any worse.

 

[causton]

I presume your picture would have been of the Oyster reader like the one shown here:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_CLJ/images/photos/800/o1504-0001002.jpg

Can you see the big red, yellow and white "WARNING - Have you paid?" poster by it? You may even have it in your photograph.

Unfortunately it means the £20 penalty fare was valid. I can only echo the above comments of paying it now, as you may not have realised it but this could have ended up in court (and still can!) should Southern wish it to...

 

[benk1342]

Why do you think that you do not need to buy a ticket before boarding? You were very lucky when you travelled to Guildford with SWT, as you would almost certainly have been charged a Penalty Fare had you encountered an RPI rather than just the guard. Have a read of the text at the back of the tickets you were sold onboard SWT. You should find clear information regarding Penalty Fares in red.

Notwithstanding the red text on the back of the ticket, this is one of the things that causes confusion among the general public about whether or not it is ok to buy a ticket on board. Most people don't know the difference between a guard and an RPI. Do the guards make a habit of saying to people, "I'll sell you a ticket this time as a one-off, but if you are caught without one by one of our revenue team you will get a penalty fare. In the future you must buy before you board"? If not they should.

 

[jb]

Do the guards make a habit of saying to people, "I'll sell you a ticket this time as a one-off, but if you are caught without one by one of our revenue team you will get a penalty fare. In the future you must buy before you board"? If not they should.

The on-board staff would probably confirm (and in fact one did just yesterday in another thread that I can remember) that being told to "**** ***" in such circumstances gets a little wearing after a while. I find it very difficult to blame them for not being "consistent" in dishing out lectures.

 

[benk1342]

I find it very difficult to blame them for not being "consistent" in dishing out lectures.

I agree and I don't blame them at all. I'll drop this now as there is another ongoing thread where this is being discussed in detail but I blame the companies and their policies, not the individual guards.

 

[sarahj]

I'm supprised you were not checked between Clapham and Gatwick. I myself check tickets from Croydon, but if there are lots of questions etc you dont have time to get through a 8 or 12 coach train in the 15 mins journey time. If you were in the front coaches, its the lack of time.

those with oysters who hum and errr get the quote from me, 'well you can either buy a ticket from me, or pay twenty pounds or more when you get to gatwick, its your decision'. They then pay up.

As for the quote, you say it, sometimes you get, 'oh right, thanks', sometimes you get, 'whatever', sometimes you get 'Fu**ing jobsworth'. Sometimes you get them, knowing in the way they say it, that they know fine well, but dont give a crap

 

[Starmill]

Notwithstanding the red text on the back of the ticket, this is one of the things that causes confusion among the general public about whether or not it is ok to buy a ticket on board. Most people don't know the difference between a guard and an RPI. Do the guards make a habit of saying to people, "I'll sell you a ticket this time as a one-off, but if you are caught without one by one of our revenue team you will get a penalty fare. In the future you must buy before you board"? If not they should.

The red text doesn't exactly clear it up.

I once bought a single from Porthmadog to Harlech from an ATW guard on board and it had a Penalty Fare Warning in red on the back of it! We both laughed at that. 'If an Authorised Fares Collector had been checking tickets...' nothing would have happened any differently!

 

[bb21]

The red text doesn't exactly clear it up.

I once bought a single from Porthmadog to Harlech from an ATW guard on board and it had a Penalty Fare Warning in red on the back of it! We both laughed at that. 'If an Authorised Fares Collector had been checking tickets...' nothing would have happened any differently!

That's because he used the wrong stock.

RSP9299/PEN is only supposed to be used by guards on Penalty Fare Trains.

 

[Starmill]

That's because he used the wrong stock.

RSP9299/PEN is only supposed to be used by guards on Penalty Fare Trains.

Meh, are Penalty Fares are chargeable as the train is making its way through the West Midlands? It was going to Birmingham International after all...

 

[yorkie]

Meh, are Penalty Fares are chargeable as the train is making its way through the West Midlands? It was going to Birmingham International after all...

No. ATW do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme.

 

[Starmill]

No. ATW do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme.

Oh, good. So its perfectly logical for them to be giving their guards 'RSP9299/PEN' ticket stock then isn't it...