Thameslink and Crossrail and Franchisees

[raildog]

The Dft has approved Thameslink but what is your reading of the situation.

Would Thamelink 2000 go ahead as planned? Would DfT/ Network Rail's influence increase in these projects given the circumstances?

And there are voices which want Network Rail to run the trains..

And Crossrail is still a blueprint in some office.

-RD.

 

[dan_atki]

As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) Thameslink 2000 has got the go ahead and is expected for completion in 2013.

What I've always wondered, though, is whether First Capital Connect got the franchise because it was going to merge Thameslink and WAGN services (which was part of the Thameslink 2000 plan) or was this part of everyone's bid? What is also interesting is Govia (who ran Thameslink, now operating Southern and Southeastern) was also excluded from bidding for the new franchise - was this down to the 'failed' (at the time) Thameslink 2000 plan or was it for some other reason?

Having the Thameslink and WAGN routes merged leaves a few branches currently operated by Southern (I suppose these will be operated by both companies) such as Guildford (via West Croydon), East Grinstead, Littlehampton, and Eastbourne to be added.

My personal opinion on Crossrail is I don't think it will happen - it's been in the pipeline too long and it just needs someone to make a serious, final decision on it.

 

[Mojo]

What I've always wondered, though, is whether First Capital Connect got the franchise because it was going to merge Thameslink and WAGN services

It wasn't really a 'merger' by the bidders - the franchise was let by the DfT/SRA as a single agreement, merging the former Thameslink and Great Northern franchises, in a similar way to Greater Anglia being a merger of West Anglia, Great Eastern and Anglia franchises.

 

[dan_atki]

It wasn't really a 'merger' by the bidders - the franchise was let by the DfT/SRA as a single agreement, merging the former Thameslink and Great Northern franchises, in a similar way to Greater Anglia being a merger of West Anglia, Great Eastern and Anglia franchises.

Thanks for clearing that up. Was it made into a single agreement to get the ball rolling for Thameslink 2000 or was there another reason?

 

[Tom]

I think that's highly likely dan_atki - getting Thameslink 2000 was part of the franchise.

 

[raildog]

yes thameslink 2000 has got the go ahead..then comes the bidding. The tender is expected in 2008 if am not wrong.
But why was Govia not allowed to bid? This is news to me...

Guess this is a case of DfT involving itself more in this project bid and may even choose the rolling stock !!

RD

 

[scb201]

Govia were not excluded from bidding but did not make it past the pre qualification part of the bidding process. Can't remember why, but I seem to remember it being something they didnt get right in the initial bid document.

 

[dan_atki]

But why was Govia not allowed to bid? This is news to me...

I'm not sure what really happened regarding Govia - some sources say they were excluded from bidding: Go-Ahead Group Wikipedia Entry and others say they were not invited to bid: Thameslink Wikipedia Entry

Guess this is a case of DfT involving itself more in this project bid and may even choose the rolling stock !!

At present, unless new rolling stock is made for the route, the only rolling stock that can operate the Thameslink route is Class 319 or Electrostars - owing to the dual voltage requirement needed on the route.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

My personal opinion on Crossrail is I don't think it will happen - it's been in the pipeline too long and it just needs someone to make a serious, final decision on it.

Crossrail hasn't been in the pipeline half as long as Thameslink 2000!

The Crossrail bill hasn't even finished its passage through Parliament yet.

On Thameslink, just to clarify matters:

The franchise (now FCC) was let on the basis that "The new franchise will combine the two franchise elements (Thameslink and GN) into one, principally as a means to provide as effective a transfer as possible to the full Thameslink 2000 Programme train service specification." In other words, the current franchise is designed to get as much as possible in place for Thameslink 2000.

According to the DfT franchise documentation:

The franchise term is to be for up to nine years. At the end of the fourth year the franchise will automatically continue for the next two years providing stated levels of performance have been achieved. After the end of year six, DfT will have discretion over whether to continue for all or part of the final three years. The flexibility in years seven to nine has been introduced in reaction to the uncertainty surrounding the timing and extent of the impact of Thameslink 2000 Programme on the Thameslink/GN franchise.

Go-Ahead failed to pass the Pre-Qualification stage of the franchise contest and was not, therefore, one of the companies short-listed to tender.

 

[raildog]

@W14Fishbourne - thanks for clearing that up.

At present, unless new rolling stock is made for the route, the only rolling stock that can operate the Thameslink route is Class 319 or Electrostars - owing to the dual voltage requirement needed on the route.

I guess new rolling stock is in the offing.. The Sustainability report does talk of new stock. And you are right. They would need dual voltage. And also longer trains are proposed. That would mean only good ol Bombardier is in the race (Desiro's possible?) and the re-opening of all the plants they closed :grin:

Also in the long run would the franchisee system be scrapped and Network Rail fully take over the running of the trains.. Me thinks this is possible in this Govt.

- RD

 

[Guinness]

Bombardier don't make Desiros, they make Electrostars which are Classes 357 (c2c), 375 (southeastern.) and 377 (Southern). All are built in Derby and I doubt that they wouldn't be manufactured anywhere else in the UK. Crewe is a repair shop which is apparently closing to make way for housing.

Desiros which South West Trains and Silverlink County/Central Trains use are built by Siemens in Germany and are brought into the UK via the Channel Tunnel.

 

[ah-media]

The rolling stock on FCC/ Thameslink is awful. Trains are packed with people with huge suitcases with nowhere to put them and the morning trains that go from Croydon to Blackfriars via Tulse & Herne Hill makes a tin of sardines look appealing.

What makes me laugh is that there are 4 coach trains through the day due to lack of rolling stock, yet you see lots of Southern 319's in and out of LB all the time.

There's a 319 bearthed at Horsham station this afternoon - whilst FCC are crying out for more trains.

A.

 

[Tom C]

The rolling stock on FCC/ Thameslink is awful. Trains are packed with people with huge suitcases with nowhere to put them and the morning trains that go from Croydon to Blackfriars via Tulse & Herne Hill makes a tin of sardines look appealing.

Nothing wrong with the rolling stock, just the operator that runs it.

Don't get me wrong Thameslink wasn't anything special but it didn't constantly come out with the same tired, boring excuses which will always involve blaming someone else.

What makes me laugh is that there are 4 coach trains through the day due to lack of rolling stock, yet you see lots of Southern 319's in and out of LB all the time.

There's a 319 bearthed at Horsham station this afternoon - whilst FCC are crying out for more trains.

They are Southern 319's, why would that make you laugh?

You cannot just give First rolling stock because it throws its toys out of the pram. If you take the 319's away then what will run to Horsham? First should get its enormous wallet out and hire other stock to work on GN which frees up 317's which can run into ZMG which will free up 319's. This of course means spending money and actually using some imagination.

Go-Ahead failed to pass the Pre-Qualification stage of the franchise contest and was not, therefore, one of the companies short-listed to tender.

Strangly I can remember the moment when I got the fax from our old MD to say that Go-Ahead hadn't pre-qualified, strange feeling of sadness. Thameslink would have done 10 times better First..........well thats not exactly hard.

 

[dan_atki]

The rolling stock on FCC/ Thameslink is awful. Trains are packed with people with huge suitcases with nowhere to put them and the morning trains that go from Croydon to Blackfriars via Tulse & Herne Hill makes a tin of sardines look appealing.

The refurbished 319s are having the 'single' seats (stuck in between a partition next to the door and set of 2+2 or 2+3) replaced into luggage racks. I must admit that the refurbished 319s are much better (albeit at the expense of 2 seats a carriage).

Overcrowding is a significant problem not only on FCC but also Southern services down the Brighton mainline and I believe that the Brighton Route Utilisation Strategy is looking into that (hence the extending of Southern's Gatwick Express services to Brighton when they take over next year).

North of the river is an entirely different story. The vast majority of FCC evening peak passengers alight at St Albans and Harpenden, meaning they don't have an option of alternative operators (i.e Midland Mainline).

Not wishing to get involved in a debate about fares but the evening peak restrictions do not work. I have travelled on trains out of King's Cross Thameslink at various times in the evening peak both before and after the implementation and noticed no difference whatsoever. Platform B at King's Cross Thameslink remains as dangerously overcrowded as it always has and trains are not any emptier. (Although saying that, you are guaranteed a seat if you get a slow Luton train, because everyone waits for the overcrowded fast Bedford service even after seeing the lightly used slow train - why? I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me either.).

Hopefully when TL2000 is completed, there will be the promised 12 car trains that are so desperately needed.

What makes me laugh is that there are 4 coach trains through the day due to lack of rolling stock, yet you see lots of Southern 319's in and out of LB all the time.

There's a 319 bearthed at Horsham station this afternoon - whilst FCC are crying out for more trains.

I agree with Tom on this. The Southern 319s quite rightly are leased to Southern - and they are well within their right to refuse to allow FCC to borrow them. FCC already have an agreement with Southern to borrow several 319 units with a further agreement that the rest (I think) of Southern's 319s are released outright to FCC within the next year or so.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by lots, currently (my source here dated January 2007) Southern have use of 12 four car 319 units - to me twelve isn't really lots, and whilst yes, they would most certainly help FCC it would not solve all of their overcrowding problems.

If FCC are that short on rolling stock then that is a problem they will have to cope with themselves. You can't try telling me that they weren't aware of the problems of the TL route when they bid for the franchise. They knew exactly what they were getting so, as far as I am concerned, it is down to them to sort the problems out without relying on another company's 'assets' (they don't own the stock outright) just as they stated they would in their bid.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

I agree with Tom on this. The Southern 319s quite rightly are leased to Southern - and they are well within their right to refuse to allow FCC to borrow them. FCC already have an agreement with Southern to borrow several 319 units with a further agreement that the rest (I think) of Southern's 319s are released outright to FCC within the next year or so.

...

If FCC are that short on rolling stock then that is a problem they will have to cope with themselves. You can't try telling me that they weren't aware of the problems of the TL route when they bid for the franchise. They knew exactly what they were getting so, as far as I am concerned, it is down to them to sort the problems out without relying on another company's 'assets' (they don't own the stock outright) just as they stated they would in their bid.

By and large it's the DfT that determines which TOC gets which stock. Given the restrictions on the stock that can operate through Snow Hill, FCC doesn't really have a lot of choice. Southern is to receive a new batch of Electrostars that will release its 319s for FCC and allow all peak hour trains to be 8 cars. 12-car trains have to wait for Thameslink 2000 and the closure of the Moorgate branch.

 

[raildog]

Bombardier don't make Desiros, they make Electrostars which are Classes 357 (c2c), 375 (southeastern.) and 377 (Southern). All are built in Derby and I doubt that they wouldn't be manufactured anywhere else in the UK. Crewe is a repair shop which is apparently closing to make way for housing.

Desiros which South West Trains and Silverlink County/Central Trains use are built by Siemens in Germany and are brought into the UK via the Channel Tunnel.

Am aware that Siemens make Desiros.. maybe I should have been more specific.. Was wondering if the Desiros also would suit Thameslink like how the Electrostars do...

Looking at the problem from another angle.. if Bombardier Derby is currently running at full capacity making the Metros for Metronet. Then how would we get Rolling stock for TL2000 in time for Olympics. And as chaz said they cant be made anywhere else..(sure about this?). So for all you know even Bombardier may not be keen on this tender.. (remember they backed out of CTRL at the last moment).. Well...Maybe DfT will figure a way out.. ad:

 

[Guinness]

The only other work (I'm aware of) that Bombardier has at Derby is building of Victoria Line Stock (Due to be finished by early 2008), SSL LUL Stock, (Due finished 2010 ?), Refurbishment of First Great Western HST Coaches and building of additional around 50 Electrostars for Southern. Other minor work could be completed at Crewe?

It wouldn't really make logical sense for Bombardier to send the work abroad as Electrostars have the parts and knowledge at Derby and training other staff could be quite expensive I would of thought.

With Thameslink not due to be completed at around 2013, the ideal time to start building stock is late-2012? By then Bombardier should of completed the above work.

Who knows if the Electrostar or Desiro designs are still about in 5/6 years.

 

[raildog]

The only other work (I'm aware of) that Bombardier has at Derby is building of Victoria Line Stock (Due to be finished by early 2008), SSL LUL Stock, (Due finished 2010 ?), Refurbishment of First Great Western HST Coaches and building of additional around 50 Electrostars for Southern. Other minor work could be completed at Crewe?

It wouldn't really make logical sense for Bombardier to send the work abroad as Electrostars have the parts and knowledge at Derby and training other staff could be quite expensive I would of thought.

With Thameslink not due to be completed at around 2013, the ideal time to start building stock is late-2012? By then Bombardier should of completed the above work.

Well.. as far as I know.. Metro fleet production for the LU is expected to go on till 2015.

Also 152 Cars for East London/North London from 2008 to 2009. OPtions include an additional 196 cars.. which could go on till 2010 - 2011...

Who knows if the Electrostar or Desiro designs are still about in 5/6 years.

You are right there.. but with bidding to start in 2008 I feel it will be modified and longer Electrostars and Desiros which will compete..
- RD
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By and large it's the DfT that determines which TOC gets which stock.

Ideally the TOC should have autonomy in choosing whcih stock they want.. as they are the ones who have to generate cash to pay the leasing companies, Dft and Network rail..

- RD