EMUs that will be surplus to requirements in the future

[northwichcat]

One argument for the local routes set to be electrified getting cascaded stock (31xs freed up by Thameslink/Crossrail) is that the business case may not be strong enough if they required brand new 4 carriage class 37xs or 38xs.

However, are there any other non-life expired EMUs that may be freed up in 2019-2024 to allow electrification schemes on similar business cases to take place?

I know there's a commuter IEP possibility that may replace some 4 car EMUs but that may not go ahead especially if existing trains can instead be re-engineered to run at 110mph.

Also Southern may well have some surplus stock given they've been allowed to over-order new EMUs in view of the Thameslink delays but the extra trains may well replace life-expired trains (313s and 315s) once the Thameslink program is complete.

 

[anthony263]

I think Southern may get back enough 377's to allow them to withdraw their class 313's.
By the way if the GW gets brand new emu's which can do 110mph then there could be a number of class 319's looking for a home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Heathrow Connect class 360's are likely to be freed up by 2018 although it could be likely that these will got to Greater Anglia.

If not there there maybe an issue with them only being a fleet of 5 and each unit has 5 carriage so they would have too much capacity for use on some routes.
If FGW do decide to operate a Reading - Heathrow Airport service once the western acess is built instead of crossraill extending some of the Heathrow services to Reading then perhaps they could be used there.

Then again I wouldnt complain if they found their way to south wales for use shuttling between Cardiff and Bristol TM

 

[RobShipway]

I would imagine that once Southern gets back the FCC Class 377's, that this will free up the Class 313, 442 and 455 fleets that Southern use.

However, you have to bear in mind that Southern will be merged with Thameslink when both Franchises expire, along with SouthEastern as well after September 2014, so I can also see the Class 465/466 fleets being freed up as well which would mean that ther would be three types of fleet within the franchise. The fleets would be Javelins, Electrostars and the Thameslink Desiro's when they come stream.

This also means that the FCC 317's, 319's, 321's and 365's will be cascaded, with the 313's being scrapped.

 

[A-driver]

I would imagine that once Southern gets back the FCC Class 377's, that this will free up the Class 313, 442 and 455 fleets that Southern use.

However, you have to bear in mind that Southern will be merged with Thameslink when both Franchises expire, along with SouthEastern as well after September 2014, so I can also see the Class 465/466 fleets being freed up as well which would mean that ther would be three types of fleet within the franchise. The fleets would be Javelins, Electrostars and the Thameslink Desiro's when they come stream.

This also means that the FCC 317's, 319's, 321's and 365's will be cascaded, with the 313's being scrapped.

Currently the 365s are planned to stay on the GN for non TL services like kings Lynn, cambs stoppers and fast peterbourghs.

Also, I don't believe southeastern are going to completely merge-the SE franchise will just be loosing some routes completely to the TL.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think Southern may get back enough 377's to allow them to withdraw their class 313's.
By the way if the GW gets brand new emu's which can do 110mph then there could be a number of class 319's looking for a home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Heathrow Connect class 360's are likely to be freed up by 2018 although it could be likely that these will got to Greater Anglia.

If not there there maybe an issue with them only being a fleet of 5 and each unit has 5 carriage so they would have too much capacity for use on some routes.
If FGW do decide to operate a Reading - Heathrow Airport service once the western acess is built instead of crossraill extending some of the Heathrow services to Reading then perhaps they could be used there.

Then again I wouldnt complain if they found their way to south wales for use shuttling between Cardiff and Bristol TM

Will the 360's be used on the initial services when electrification reaches Reading/Oxford? I also assume that there is very little stopping them being used on 3rd Rail apart from the update of the computer and a few shoes

 

[HSTEd]

Currently the 365s are planned to stay on the GN for non TL services like kings Lynn, cambs stoppers and fast peterbourghs.

Those duties can't hope to occupy the entire Class 365 fleet.... that is one train per hour to Cambridge (fast) with bi-hourly extension to King's Lynn, one train per hour to Cambridge (stopping) and what one train per hour to Peterborough?.... although with its soon to be drastically improving in travel time IEP service I can see demand for that nosediving.

40 trainsets is huge overkill for that, even if you run every single Cambridge fast as 12 cars.
(And I am going to assume that the Cambridge "stopper" will run non-stop as far as Welwyn Garden City since that will be receiving its own high frequency stopping service from TL, cutting its travel time compared to today).

 

[RobShipway]

Those duties can't hope to occupy the entire Class 365 fleet.... that is one train per hour to Cambridge (fast) with bi-hourly extension to King's Lynn, one train per hour to Cambridge (stopping) and what one train per hour to Peterborough?.... although with its soon to be drastically improving in travel time IEP service I can see demand for that nosediving.

40 trainsets is huge overkill for that, even if you run every single Cambridge fast as 12 cars.
(And I am going to assume that the Cambridge "stopper" will run non-stop as far as Welwyn Garden City since that will be receiving its own high frequency stopping service from TL, cutting its travel time compared to today).

I know there is 147 of them, but could the 465's be converted to be 365's and the maximum speed upgraded from 75mph to 90mph?

Also, could the 466's be converted?

I know that this is not likely to happen, but the class 465's and class 466's if upgrade from 75mph to 100mph would be good replacements on the GWML for the Class 165/166's. However, only 37 of the 465's would be required and 20 of the class 466's if like for like where replaced. I would leave the 465's as four coach trains, to replace the 3 coach 165/166 trains as you can couple a class 466 to a class 465 which would give better capacity than coupling a class 165 3 car, with a class 165 2 car which happens in the morning commute.

 

[Class377/5]

Currently the 365s are planned to stay on the GN for non TL services like kings Lynn, cambs stoppers and fast peterbourghs.

Also, I don't believe southeastern are going to completely merge-the SE franchise will just be loosing some routes completely to the TL.

Southeastern aren't being merged. That was a rumor prior to announcement that Thameslink and Southern would merge. Only parts of Southeastern to go over to Thameslink will be the Sevenoaks and peak only Maidstone East services. Everything else will be connected to Southern areas.

The 365's aren't going anywhere. From Kings Cross you get peak 12 cars to Peterborough, Cambridge, eight cars as far as Ely and four cars to King's Lynn along with peak semi stoppers to Welywn means those 41 units will be spread covering a lot of duties that neither the 313 or 700 fleets can cover.

The 313 will be used in six car formations with extra services run to Hertford North.

Those duties can't hope to occupy the entire Class 365 fleet.... that is one train per hour to Cambridge (fast) with bi-hourly extension to King's Lynn, one train per hour to Cambridge (stopping) and what one train per hour to Peterborough?.... although with its soon to be drastically improving in travel time IEP service I can see demand for that nosediving.

40 trainsets is huge overkill for that, even if you run every single Cambridge fast as 12 cars.
(And I am going to assume that the Cambridge "stopper" will run non-stop as far as Welwyn Garden City since that will be receiving its own high frequency stopping service from TL, cutting its travel time compared to today).

The 365 could do;

2tph 12 car to Peterborough
2tph 12 car to Cambridge which spilt with 8 as far as Ely and 4 to Kings Lynn
2/3tph 8 cars to Welwyn semi stoppers

There are 41x 365, the Peterborough services in peak will use 18 of the alone, or just under half the fleet. See how there just aren't the spare units people think because the 321 and 317 are going.

Cambridge stoppers is something yet to be sorted.

Welywn will only get 2/4tph from TL, hardly what I call high frequency.

 

[A-driver]

The 313 will be used in six car formations with extra services run to Hertford North.



The 365 are to do;

2tph 12 car to Peterborough
2tph 12 car to Cambridge which spilt with 8 as far as Ely and 4 to Kings Lynn
2/3tph 8 cars to Welwyn semi stoppers

Cambridge stoppers is something yet to be sorted.

Welywn will only get 2/4tph from TL, hardly what I call high frequency.

That is all rumour at the moment to be fair and there is currently a huge question mark over the future of 313s. The 6 car fixed formation was never discussed officially, just seems to be rumour.

Plus the running patterns for thameslink haven't been finalised yet, let alone the other GN services with all sorts of ideas and rumours floating around from east coast taking them, greater Anglia running stoppers as an extension to the Liverpool street service cambs-Royston, fast peterbourgh a being extended north replacing verious east coasts etc., all speculation at the moment.

I can't see them running 12 cars to Lynn with 2 splits at cambs and Ely during the day-would be expensive to diagram with all the drivers needed to split and there is too much that can go wrong in disruption or should issues occur with the coupling. That is why the peak 12 cars split to only 4 at Cambridge at the moment with a separate 8 car running to Ely or downham semi fast.

 

[Chris125]

I know that this is not likely to happen, but the class 465's and class 466's if upgrade from 75mph to 100mph would be good replacements on the GWML for the Class 165/166's.

Non-Crossrail commuter services on the GWML will need to do at least 110mph, yet Kent Networkers could only do 100mph at best after an expensive mid-life AC conversion - as new units would be needed, better to procure 110mph units for the GWML and keep the Networkers where they are.

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

That is all rumour at the moment to be fair and there is currently a huge question mark over the future of 313s. The 6 car fixed formation was never discussed officially, just seems to be rumour.

Plus the running patterns for thameslink haven't been finalised yet, let alone the other GN services with all sorts of ideas and rumours floating around from east coast taking them, greater Anglia running stoppers as an extension to the Liverpool street service cambs-Royston, fast peterbourgh a being extended north replacing verious east coasts etc., all speculation at the moment.

I can't see them running 12 cars to Lynn with 2 splits at cambs and Ely during the day-would be expensive to diagram with all the drivers needed to split and there is too much that can go wrong in disruption or should issues occur with the coupling. That is why the peak 12 cars split to only 4 at Cambridge at the moment with a separate 8 car running to Ely or downham semi fast.

Your assuming I'm commenting on public info. The ideas for Thameslink have settled down, just not fully public yet what's going on. I believe the timetable for 2018 is in draft form currently, hence my comments. As for other GN services, your wrong. They are being developed in parallel with Thameslink but I don't have full details on the GN pattern.

Note you seem to have misread my comments, I was discussing peak only requirements as 12 cars is way over capacity currently but I didn't make that clear tbf.

 

[A-driver]

Your assuming I'm commenting on public info. The ideas for Thameslink have settled down, just not fully public yet what's going on. I believe the timetable for 2018 is in draft form currently, hence my comments. As for other GN services, your wrong. They are being developed in parallel with Thameslink but I don't have full details on the GN pattern.

Note you seem to have misread my comments, I was discussing peak only requirements as 12 cars is way over capacity currently but I didn't make that clear tbf.

Well of you are seriously quoting official info not yet in the public domain then you should probably stop as your employer won't be best pleased!

As for the 313s-I know for certainty that their future is yet to be decided and the fixed 6 car is rumour.

Plus we all know that nothing's final until it happens in the railway. They won't just do the timetable now and leave it alone for the next 5 years. They were going to leave Wimbledon out recently but that changed. It will keep changing until it starts.

 

[motorman]

If 313's are withdrawn what alternative stock could operate the Moorgate Line?

 

[MCR247]

Some sort of new build, maybe a 378 type thing

 

[A-driver]

If 313's are withdrawn what alternative stock could operate the Moorgate Line?

Either a new build or 3 car 319.

 

[Class377/5]

Well of you are seriously quoting official info not yet in the public domain then you should probably stop as your employer won't be best pleased!

Some info is ok, but not all of it.

As for the 313s-I know for certainty that their future is yet to be decided and the fixed 6 car is rumour.

I wasn't aware its a rumor to run the 313s as six cars. Been shown in documents the DfT have used that were linked on this forum. Certainly idea is to allow longer trains under the TLP project.

Plus we all know that nothing's final until it happens in the railway. They won't just do the timetable now and leave it alone for the next 5 years. They were going to leave Wimbledon out recently but that changed. It will keep changing until it starts.

Depends on what you mean by recently. Not that anything was final anyway.

 

[clagmonster]

The last I heard was that the plan for Thameslink on the ECML was a half-hourly 12-car service to each of Peterborough and Cambridge throughout the day, together with a quarter-hourly 8-car Welwyn stopper. The latter presumably supplements the Moorgate 313 services, possibly allowing some to be diverted onto the Hertford Loop.

At present, in the peaks there is just a loosely half-hourly Kings Cross-Welwyn semi-fast, in addition to the Moorgate services. This presumably will be replaced entirely by services coming from Thameslink, and in any case is currently partly 313 worked. Therefore, the Welwyn element can be ignored from the discussions.

In the off-peak, there are currently 2 trains per hour to Peterborough, which will be directly replaced by Thameslink services. Similarly, there are 2 Cambridge services, plus the half hourly cruiser with Kings Lynn extensions. So off-peak, the 365s will only be required to work the cruisers and Kings Lynns.

In the evening peak, there are the following additional diagrams in addition to the off-peak pattern:
16:17 Kings X-Royston (17:03)
16:32 Kings X-Cambridge (18:03)
16:50 Kings X-Peterborough (18:12)
17:14 Kings X-Peterborough (18:33)
17:23 Kings X-Royston (18:07)
17:44 Kingx X-Peterborough (19:03)
17:53 Kings X-Royston (18:37)
18:14 Kings X-Peterborough (19:40)
18:23 Kings X-Royston (19:13)
18:44 Kings X-Peterborough (20:03)
18:53 Kings X-Royston (19:37)
Plus a couple of later bits, but they can quite easily come off earlier Roystons. So that gives us 11 rakes. Assuming they are 8 cars from the suburban side, that is 22 units.

The Cambridge Fasts and Kings Lynn will use another 12 units, again assuming 8 car units south of Cambridge. Together with the rush hour requirement, that is 34 diagrams from 40 units. Allowing for a couple on maintenance, and some 12 car working out of Kings Cross, I think it is quite east to justify all 40 365s staying at Hornsey with the 313s.

 

[317 forever]

It just goes to show how much rail useage has grown that hardly any EMUs have been withdrawn since 2005. Admittedly this is partly because no new trains were ordered for, I think, 999 days.

I wonder whether the Moorgate line has been or could be cleared for class 317s or even 319s to replace class 313s? These are the oldest EMUs in regular service and ought to be withdrawn before long, possibly though a cascade of Thameslink or Crossrail rolling stock.

 

[transmanche]

I wonder whether the Moorgate line has been or could be cleared for class 317s or even 319s to replace class 313s? These are the oldest EMUs in regular service and ought to be withdrawn before long, possibly though a cascade of Thameslink or Crossrail rolling stock.

317s don't have the third rail capability. 319s don't appear to have been cleared for the ECML (other than ECS moves to/from Hornsey) - and if they can fit in the Northern City line tunnels they would need to have the trailer car removed.

Assuming that Class 319 carriages are of nominal 20m length.

 

[A-driver]

317s don't have the third rail capability. 319s don't appear to have been cleared for the ECML (other than ECS moves to/from Hornsey) - and if they can fit in the Northern City line tunnels they would need to have the trailer car removed.

Assuming that Class 319 carriages are of nominal 20m length.

319s will fit on the NCL, MK1 coaches have been down there in the past. 319s are one if the options being considered.