Fantasy station/line/route re-openings and other projects

[apk55]

Some suggestions for metrolink extensions in Manchester Area

1 Timperley to Lymn and possibly Warrington using the old railway trackbed. Street running through Broadheath where a road has been built.

2 Oldham to Greenfield and onward to Uppermill based on the old railway.

3 Radcliff to Bolton

 

[Willoughby]

First ever post so apologies if covering old ground.

How about removing flat crossing at Newark with flyover (as long planned) but replace with new line that loops south to form Lincoln-Northgate-Castle line serving highlevel platforms Northgate with direct access to 'low level' platorms moved half a mile north of current site to just south of A46 bypass. NNG-Lincoln shuttle would then be scrapped and replaced with hourly express Nottingham-Newark Castle-NNG-Lincoln-Cleethorpes that connects with ECML and hourly all-station stopper.

Benefits would be:

- increase capacity and 125mph linespeed on ECML with brake and fuel/energy savings on every service
- increased capacity for pax and Humber Port freight on Nottingham-Lincoln line
- much better connections north and south at Northgate for Lincoln and Grimsby and north for Nottingham*to Doncaster, York, Newcastle etc
- much faster Nottingham-Lincoln service for commuters and students
- much better train and crew utilisation by merging Lincoln-Nottingham service with Lincoln-Northgate shuttle
- improved reliability on ECML and Nottingham-Lincoln line

There appears to be room for 2 island low level platforms at the re-sited Northgate which would allow better regulation of ECML and more direct trains to/from Lincoln to serve Northgate with the current route to/from Lincoln continuing under the new flyover then joining the new route half a mile east of the ECML.

Obviously would require significant engineering but heading east from Castle the line could use what looks like an old embankment (?) then cross the trent on a new bridge (as any flyover*would have to), new line heading north east over ECML with highlevel platforms continuing parallel and south of A46 before crossing it when the road descends to ground level before line joins exisiting lincoln line. The new combined Northgate station would be served by a new multi-deck carpark on brownfield site west of ECML and south of A46 bridge.

Replacing the country's only major flat crossing has long been planned but presumably the business case has never been strong enough. This plan would deliver much greater benefits with construction costs defrayed by selling existing Northgate site for development.

 

[LE Greys]

How about something for the existing network. Ruling speed upgrades for all lines possible, to try to make sure that the car is never faster.

Primary main lines
At the next major relay, upgrade all sections of primary main line (ECML, MML, GWML, Reading-Penzance and any non-tilt WCML) to 125mph with TASS. Also consider structure upgrades to enable the majority of freight trains to run at 75mph. Where there are slow lines, passenger trains should run at 100, freight at 75. Vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements should be able to run at up to 125 even if non-tilt where line curvature permits.

Secondary main lines/Major commuter routes/Regional express routes
These are lines such as the GEML, WAML, Kent Coast Lines, Brighton Line, SWML, Golden Valley, Cotswold, Holyhead, Chiltern, Trans-Pennine, Scottish 'Express' routes and so on. Increase passenger ruling speed to 100mph, with a freight ruling speed of 60 (currently, many of these lines have an MU or SP derogation) wherever possible at the next major relay. Dual all remaining single-line sections.

Regional routes/Commuter lines
These are the majority of passenger routes throughout the country. Specific examples include the S&C, Cambridge Branch, Norwich-Ely-Peterborough-Syston and so on. At the next major relay, increase MU or SP derogations to 100, with 60-75 for other types of traffic. Lines with extensive cross-country traffic operated by Class 170s to be considered individually for possible upgrade to 'Secondary main line' status, enabling Voyager operation.

Diesel lines in the former NSE area
To be electrified ASAP, enabling a total withdrawl of DMUs from this area and a cascade to other locations.

Regional Suburban Lines
Specific examples being withing SYPTE, WYPTE, GMPTE, Valley Lines, etc. Aim for 'harmonisation' with the former NSE area. The principle being that these cities should be considered on an equal footing with London for provision of suburban rail services.

Rural branch lines over 50 miles
This category was created to deal with anomalies such as the long routes in Scotland and Wales, plus the Heart of Wessex and so on. If the line is RETB-fitted, follow the course for lines under 50 miles. If non-RETB fitted or double-track, consider an upgrade to 'Regional routes' status.

Rural branch lines under 50 miles
At the next major relay, increase SP derogations to 75 mph, allowing current stock to run as near as possible to its maximum speed. Lines with extensive freight and excursion traffic should see general passenger speeds increased to 60 and freight to at least 45, to avoid holding up faster passenger trains. Consider an equivalent of RETB fitment to ease maintenance costs.

 

[Amy Worrall]

In theory the trains from leicester could always use the old freight loop (i think it was a freight loop! :/) from hinckley,where the junction used to be by the whitacre road industrial estate, then it would go over the hinckley road and weddington road (where the disused trackbed and bridges still exist) then the only logical way for the track to get from there would be to put in a Dive under curve/tunnel,undernearth the WCML and the line to coleshill and have it surface next to the up line to coleshill like this

I was meaning something more like this:

They'd still need to reverse at Nuneaton station, but I believe they used to do that anyway when the service was running.

 

[LE Greys]

Speaking of freight loops, I've often wanted to see the Carlisle and Lincoln avoiding lines put back. Buildings in the way are the main concern with these.

 

[HSTEd]

Is it too late to mention my proposal to build the world's second largest network of High Speed lines in the style of Shinkansen, with 90% of the population being within 30km of a station?

These would then be connected with trolleybusses, light and conventional rail and any other technologies that seem appropriate.

 

[The Ham]

Is it too late to mention my proposal to build the world's second largest network of High Speed lines in the style of Shinkansen, with 90% of the population being within 30km of a station?

Would it be really mean to say, yes it is too late?

 

[edwin_m]

Some suggestions for metrolink extensions in Manchester Area

1 Timperley to Lymn and possibly Warrington using the old railway trackbed. Street running through Broadheath where a road has been built.

2 Oldham to Greenfield and onward to Uppermill based on the old railway.

3 Radcliff to Bolton

It's a real shame that Oldham-Ashton and Oldham-Greenfield have been lost to the network. They could have created a loop for Transpennine services to have served Oldham, providing both a fast train to Manchester and a link to Huddersfield. This would also have helped with capacity issues via Staybridge.

I don't know Oldham-Ashton but there is a housing estate between Lydgate Tunnel and Greenfield and the section from Oldham to Grotton would be very difficult to restore even as Metrolink. Any attempt to serve the Saddlworth area by train suffers from the geography, where the surviving route is high above the two largest settlements at Greenfield and Uppermill. Reopening the Micklehurst loop would serve both places better but the extent of demolition and encroachment on this route makes it a non-starter in my view.

Radcliffe to Bolton has been discussed on another topic.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Some suggestions for metrolink extensions in Manchester Area

1 Timperley to Lymn and possibly Warrington using the old railway trackbed. Street running through Broadheath where a road has been built.

2 Oldham to Greenfield and onward to Uppermill based on the old railway.

3 Radcliff to Bolton

I'm quite surprised the Metrolink hasn't been considered extending to Stockport.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Woodhead

Reopen the Woodhead in its entirety. Fully electrified.
Reopen a 4 platform station at Sheffield Victoria. Open a new 8 platform station at Nunnery Square park and ride.
Victoria would be 2 up 2 down platform simples. Nunnery would have 1 up 1 down, 4 terminating platforms and 2 Super Tram terminating platforms. Reopen several local station along the route including upgrading steelworks branch at Stocksbridge for passenger services to Sheffield. Longer platforms at Wadsley Bridge for Football Specials. Allow for Sheffield Huddersfield services limited stop to Penistone. Redouble line from Penistone to Huddersfield as far as practically possible. Area around Sheffield Victoria to be redeveloped with possible attempt to get the tram there. Not entirely sure where from at the moment but who knows. Manchester Lincoln TPE services. Probably look at 3 trains per hour to Manchester, 2 to Stocksbridge, 2 Semi Fast to Huddersfield (1 continuing fast all way). Huddersfield to London via Penistone, Victoria, Chesterfield then to St Pancras ( although this option would benefit more from grade seperation at Retford to allow a connection to ECML). Penistone station to be upgraded to 4 platforms including some terminating platforms. I really could take this idea and run with it so much. All opened to W12 where possible with improvements in Manchester to allow for a full Transpennine freight service.

 

[Amy Worrall]

I'd like to see Woodhead reopened too.

That and Buxton to Matlock. I know it's been mentioned before but I'll add my voice. My parents live in Whaley Bridge, and it'd be great to be able to get a stopper from Derby rather than having to go all the way up to Stockport and back down. If they had some fast trains going that way too it'd take a bit of stress off the WCML from Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just realised I'm not being ambitious enough in a fantasy thread -- where I was proposing a Coventry-Leiceter service before, let's add to it a bit.

As well as the dive-under at Nuneaton, we have a flyover at Coventry. It'd take a bit of work to fit it in, and we'd lose a bit of the edge of the park:

What this means is that the same service can come into Coventry station on platform 4, without crossing the other lines. Therefore, the Leciester->Coventry train could also go down a newly double tracked Coventry->Leamington line, calling at Kenilworth on the way, giving Leicester a direct service to Leamington.

 

[The Planner]

That would be one hell of a gradient either side!

 

[Rational Plan]

Remove ticket barriers from all National Rail stations and put revenue staff back on the trains.

Ha ha ha, now you are living in a fantasy land.

 

[Amy Worrall]

That would be one hell of a gradient either side!

Heh, I don't know how much space you actually need for one!

Can you think of any other way of getting trains from the Nuneaton line onto the Leamington line without obstructing the whole main line?

Amy

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Woodhead

Reopen the Woodhead in its entirety. Fully electrified.
Reopen a 4 platform station at Sheffield Victoria. Open a new 8 platform station at Nunnery Square park and ride.
Victoria would be 2 up 2 down platform simples. Nunnery would have 1 up 1 down, 4 terminating platforms and 2 Super Tram terminating platforms. Reopen several local station along the route including upgrading steelworks branch at Stocksbridge for passenger services to Sheffield. Longer platforms at Wadsley Bridge for Football Specials. Allow for Sheffield Huddersfield services limited stop to Penistone. Redouble line from Penistone to Huddersfield as far as practically possible. Area around Sheffield Victoria to be redeveloped with possible attempt to get the tram there. Not entirely sure where from at the moment but who knows. Manchester Lincoln TPE services. Probably look at 3 trains per hour to Manchester, 2 to Stocksbridge, 2 Semi Fast to Huddersfield (1 continuing fast all way). Huddersfield to London via Penistone, Victoria, Chesterfield then to St Pancras ( although this option would benefit more from grade seperation at Retford to allow a connection to ECML). Penistone station to be upgraded to 4 platforms including some terminating platforms. I really could take this idea and run with it so much. All opened to W12 where possible with improvements in Manchester to allow for a full Transpennine freight service.

I rather like the proposals for Huddersfield-Sheffield here, though I do have a thought:

You propose 2tph from Huddersfield to Sheffield via Penistone, both running to Victoria semi-fast from Penistone. The current Penistone line service is the only public transport link between Huddersfield and Barnsley and the only practical way of getting from the Denby Dale/Skelmanthorpe area to Barnsley. Now, all the villages in this area have a (cultural/historical) link to Barnsley, with many residents travelling there for hospital visits. Would these passengers be required to change at Penistone in future?

Perhaps a (fantasy) solution would be to have a 3rd all-shacks service leaving Huddersfield (on the proviso that any remaining single-line sections would be able to cope) which runs to Barnsley and on to Doncaster via a re-opened line via Wath and Mexborough. The loss of Huddersfield-Meadowhall direct services may also need attention, perhaps a relaid Horbury curve would be suitable as this would also be useful for the cement traffic to Dewsbury.

 

[The Planner]

Heh, I don't know how much space you actually need for one!

Can you think of any other way of getting trains from the Nuneaton line onto the Leamington line without obstructing the whole main line?

Amy

You can't which is why any aspect of Leamington connecting with Nuneaton always gets binned.

 

[WestCountry]

That would be one hell of a gradient either side!

If you had a tunnel/bridge underneath the mainline instead, with a separate platform at Coventry at a lower level to the others, it would probably be possible to make a sane gradient - going down steeply from Albany Rd underbridge to the mainline, up a bit to the station, flat(ish) through there and then back up to join the Leamington line around the curve somewhere. At that end, there'd even be space to have the flyunder line come up between the two existing lines, so Nuneaton trains wouldn't interfere with Leamington - Birmingham services.

How steep is the Up Slow flyover just north of King's Cross? That rises up, over both mainlines and back down again within a couple of hundred metres...

 

[dewsnapsliding]

It's a real shame that Oldham-Ashton and Oldham-Greenfield have been lost to the network. They could have created a loop for Transpennine services to have served Oldham, providing both a fast train to Manchester and a link to Huddersfield. This would also have helped with capacity issues via Staybridge.

I don't know Oldham-Ashton but there is a housing estate between Lydgate Tunnel and Greenfield and the section from Oldham to Grotton would be very difficult to restore even as Metrolink. Any attempt to serve the Saddlworth area by train suffers from the geography, where the surviving route is high above the two largest settlements at Greenfield and Uppermill. Reopening the Micklehurst loop would serve both places better but the extent of demolition and encroachment on this route makes it a non-starter in my view.

Radcliffe to Bolton has been discussed on another topic.

Not much built at Ashton end as you can walk practically from Ashton town centre unencumbered all the way to Park Bridge (I used to walk my dog on the old route when I lived locally).

There's not much in the way of huge population in the way, and now Mumps station is gone, where wold you go?

I would have money on it linking Oldham and Ashton Metrolink within 15 years as part of the takeover of old rail routes in GMPTE area.

What about Stalybidge - Guide Bridge sidings (using out of use bridge towards Hyde) - new flyover next to Dukinfield carriage works - Hyde North - Woodley - reinstate branch towards Tiviot Dale - full line to connect with Airport line. All Airport trains from East/NE would not need to go anywhere near either Manhester stations

I'd be willing to tie above in to reopened Woodhead and Godley-Woodley reopened link, and thn Sheffield expresses to Mcr Airport again completely avoiding Mcr leaving local lines for commuter services.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I rather like the proposals for Huddersfield-Sheffield here, though I do have a thought:

You propose 2tph from Huddersfield to Sheffield via Penistone, both running to Victoria semi-fast from Penistone. The current Penistone line service is the only public transport link between Huddersfield and Barnsley and the only practical way of getting from the Denby Dale/Skelmanthorpe area to Barnsley. Now, all the villages in this area have a (cultural/historical) link to Barnsley, with many residents travelling there for hospital visits. Would these passengers be required to change at Penistone in future?

Perhaps a (fantasy) solution would be to have a 3rd all-shacks service leaving Huddersfield (on the proviso that any remaining single-line sections would be able to cope) which runs to Barnsley and on to Doncaster via a re-opened line via Wath and Mexborough. The loss of Huddersfield-Meadowhall direct services may also need attention, perhaps a relaid Horbury curve would be suitable as this would also be useful for the cement traffic to Dewsbury.

Horbury curve is one of my other fantasy reopenings.

I would propose 2 trains per hour Sheffield Huddersfield semifast to Penistone, one would then be semi fast to Huddersfield and one would stop at all stations. In addition a Huddersfield Barnsley all stops service would operate and a Penistone Sheffield Midland via Barnsley service which would be fast Barnsley Meadowhall. Would require some additional loops and resignalling.

 

[AndyHudds]

Horbury curve is one of my other fantasy reopenings.

I would propose 2 trains per hour Sheffield Huddersfield semifast to Penistone, one would then be semi fast to Huddersfield and one would stop at all stations. In addition a Huddersfield Barnsley all stops service would operate and a Penistone Sheffield Midland via Barnsley service which would be fast Barnsley Meadowhall. Would require some additional loops and resignalling.

Couple that with the re-opening of the Spen Valley line and Bradford could be directly connnected to Sheffield and the East Midlands.

 

[LE Greys]

I rather like the proposals for Huddersfield-Sheffield here, though I do have a thought:

You propose 2tph from Huddersfield to Sheffield via Penistone, both running to Victoria semi-fast from Penistone. The current Penistone line service is the only public transport link between Huddersfield and Barnsley and the only practical way of getting from the Denby Dale/Skelmanthorpe area to Barnsley. Now, all the villages in this area have a (cultural/historical) link to Barnsley, with many residents travelling there for hospital visits. Would these passengers be required to change at Penistone in future?

Perhaps a (fantasy) solution would be to have a 3rd all-shacks service leaving Huddersfield (on the proviso that any remaining single-line sections would be able to cope) which runs to Barnsley and on to Doncaster via a re-opened line via Wath and Mexborough. The loss of Huddersfield-Meadowhall direct services may also need attention, perhaps a relaid Horbury curve would be suitable as this would also be useful for the cement traffic to Dewsbury.

I also rather like this idea. Can we also reopen Tinsley, put in a heavy-rail link between there and Meadowhall (somehow); dual the entire line from Woodburn Junction to Mexborough while totally rebuilding Aldwarke Junction; divert anything running through Rotherham Central into Victoria; reopen Rotherham Masborough for Midland trains; and reopen the North Midland section between Royston & Nottleton and Swinton Town? That way, EMT could grab itself a slice of Leeds traffic while we would clear out the northern throat of Sheffield Midland. South Trans-Pennine would be able to use the Woodhead as well, and a Hull-Sheffield-Manchester service is possible.

 

[HSTEd]

Would it be really mean to say, yes it is too late?

Yes, Yes it would be :cry:

 

[The Ham]

Yes, Yes it would be :cry:

Well it's a good job that it isn't too late then.

 

[Harpers Tate]

My own pipe-dream would be for the re-instatement of Elmton & Creswell to Clowne, Staveley, and then via Renishaw/Eckington, Beighton to Woodhouse, with stations at those locations built or re-instated. The present alternate "short" Robin Hood workings that terminate at Mansfield Woodhouse would extend to Creswell and then via this route into Sheffield. We'd then have connected these places directly to Sheffield. In the case of the existing RHL stations, avoiding what is just about always a long wait at Worksop, and bringing trains back to the other places. Much of the track is in situ (but overgrown); pointwork at Elmton & Creswell is missing.

 

[LWB]

OK .. so this is a fantasy thread and cost/benefit has no place here, so I ask for:

1: Otley to be reconnected at both sides with a Yeadon Airport (sorry, Leeds/Bradford International) deep tunnel connection to an underground type station. I've been plugging this on here for years.

2: Magically link the two Bradford stations. Surely the shortest fantasy in this thread!

 

[AndyHudds]

I also rather like this idea. Can we also reopen Tinsley, put in a heavy-rail link between there and Meadowhall (somehow); dual the entire line from Woodburn Junction to Mexborough while totally rebuilding Aldwarke Junction; divert anything running through Rotherham Central into Victoria; reopen Rotherham Masborough for Midland trains; and reopen the North Midland section between Royston & Nottleton and Swinton Town? That way, EMT could grab itself a slice of Leeds traffic while we would clear out the northern throat of Sheffield Midland. South Trans-Pennine would be able to use the Woodhead as well, and a Hull-Sheffield-Manchester service is possible.

Cross Country pass through Masborough and it should just be solely opened for that, I know its close to Sheffield but surely Rotherham deserves a stop by the Cross Country trains.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I also rather like this idea. Can we also reopen Tinsley, put in a heavy-rail link between there and Meadowhall (somehow); dual the entire line from Woodburn Junction to Mexborough while totally rebuilding Aldwarke Junction; divert anything running through Rotherham Central into Victoria; reopen Rotherham Masborough for Midland trains; and reopen the North Midland section between Royston & Nottleton and Swinton Town? That way, EMT could grab itself a slice of Leeds traffic while we would clear out the northern throat of Sheffield Midland. South Trans-Pennine would be able to use the Woodhead as well, and a Hull-Sheffield-Manchester service is possible.

With passive provision for an interchange with the HS2 Parkway station I hope?

 

[IanXC]

Well I'm going to bang the drum for the Minsters Line, and York Metro.

I'd have the reopened Minsters Line seeing 4 trains an hour:

2tph Hull-York calling Cottingham, Beverley, Market Weighton, Pocklington, Stamford Bridge, Haxby and York
1tph Hull-Leeds calling Cottingham, Beverley, Pocklington, York and Leeds
1tph Bridlington-York calling Driffield, Market Weighton, Pocklington, Stamford Bridge and York

Plus York Metro:

2 York-Strensall calling York District Hospital, Haxby and Strensall

And of course the second hourly York-Scarborough service, which would be an extension of the EC York Terminator from Kings Cross, calling Malton and Scarborough, probably using 5 car IEP bimode.

(Yes you're not seeing things, a proposal on a fantasy thread using IEP!!!)

(*hides*)

 

[swt_passenger]

How steep is the Up Slow flyover just north of King's Cross? That rises up, over both mainlines and back down again within a couple of hundred metres...

The tunnel portal for the slows is at a different level to that for the mains, so it isn't straightforward to compare it with a 'typical' flyover arrangement. I reckon what you can see above ground is about 300 yards, but it's really only the up direction ramp and the bridges, the rest is underground

A typical 'up and down' flyover connecting tracks at the same level, such as at Durnford Rd between Wimbledon and Earlsfield, is about 700 yards overall...

 

[30mog]

How about a curve on the green belt NW of Tamworth station?

With a running journey time about 48 mins from Sheffield. Express trains could curve left onto WCML and carry on to to Euston. 2 hours 7 minutes just like the MML should be possible? More permutations for freight movement? Alternative route to London in the event of problems on MML? But most of all, I would use it even if it was a bit slower than going to St.Pancras because St.P has since Eurostar gone from being the best London terminus to the worst. I know HS1 had to end somewhere in London though. All those stupid overpriced shops to suit no one from an everyday life we know. Only place to get a drink a champagne bar charging £50 a spoonful. The old St.P was ample if not great and likeable for being a quieter entrance to London. St.P really does make me p*k*! And before you tell me I can always change at Donny or Retford for KX - they've made an equally good job of spoiling that too. What happened to being able to arrive at a typical London station, a bar, a beggar, a Burger King, a thug with a Chelsea shirt looking very determined to ask you the time and the odd prostitute or vagrant hanging around? I would much prefer to enter London at Euston. Suppose they will have to mess it up like down the road when HS2 starts though?

Or can they at least have more XC services from Sheffield stopping at Tamworth?