Best Value ticket for tourist in Manchester

[F Great Eastern]

One of my friends from Italy is coming to Manchester to see the city and also see Liverpool and a concert. They'll be in Manchester for a week and wanted to see all of the sights etc and was wondering what the best way to do that is.

I see that Stagecoach do a weekly ticket for 12.50 and First for 13.00 to be used on the bus, but what parts of the city do each of those companies cover, if they both cover parts a tourist would want to use then obviously that is going to be more expensive.

I looked at System One travel cards, which seem a sensible option but they (stupidly in my view) require a photo ID for a weekly ticket which is more than useless for a tourist who clearly won't be able to get the photo card posted out as they want a UK address.

Also what about Metrolink? The Metrolink site is also worse than useless for a tourist, as it's impossible to find out how much a weekly ticket costs for certain zones, since it only quotes stop to stop season tickets rather than zone based unlimited use day/week tickets.

Of course the best option would be a 7 day SystemOne adult bus saver at £19.90 for the bus at least, but that does not include Metrolink (But oddly the 1 day version does) but because of the insane photo policy that becomes impossible.

 

[Mojo]

Crikey; finding out information about ticketing in Greater Manchester online is near on impossible. TfGM should be ashamed of themselves and their complex websites.

I don't know if this is correct or not but this answer on Yahoo! Answers suggests that you can get a new Photocard from TfGM Travelshops. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130412030157AAxOm4B. Whilst their website suggests you can buy new tickets there, I cannot find any confirmation that you can get a Photocard there, other than in the above.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Agreed - The First and Stagecoach sites are very clear about what tickets were available for their own services with a simple list with prices, but everything else is an absolute nightmare to work out.

For me weekly tickets requiring a photo ID is nonsense. Monthly and more yes, but weekly is just plain silly and just makes things much more awkward than they need to be.

Do zone or area based usage tickets even exist on MetroLink? Everything on their site points towards point to point season tickets but not anything that can be used on multiple trips in the same day between different stations.

 

[323235]

Yes you get the membership card in a matter of minutes at a TfGM travelshop with a passport sized photo and proof of ID.

The website used to have much more information but they have taken it off and you now have to rely on the System One website which is devoid of a lot of extra information for example it doesn't tell you that a Traincard is valid to Disley and New Mills Newtown/Central.

It wouldn't be so hard to make the weekly system one tickets ID less but I think some of the operators wouldn't like the idea of people transferring them when they get a lot less revenue from them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Actually I've read it again and there is no weekly ticket that includes more than a bus?
http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/travelcards/weekly

But there is a SystemOne add on if you have a tram or train ticket to add the bus:
http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/travelcards/details/buscard-extra-weekly

I assumed that the second link I posted was to add tram and a train to the bus ticket, but seems actually it's an add on for a non systemone ticket.

I must say the whole thing makes the whole system Manchester come across as exceedingly unfriendly. If a tourist is coming to Manchester for a week (which you'd say isn't exactly a rare thing), and they can't find a suitable product that is pretty damning for TFGM.

It wouldn't be so hard to make the weekly system one tickets ID less but I think some of the operators wouldn't like the idea of people transferring them when they get a lot less revenue from them.

Maybe so - but then it makes the whole idea of SystemOne redundant partially if they're making the tickets full of terms and conditions that make them less attractive because they require hassle to actually purchase.

So it seems the only option they really have is to purchase this:
http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/travelcards/details/daysaver-bus-tram

Though that has the 9.30 time restriction where the weekly one, where there is no tram option, doesn't, plus of course 7x6.50 is not exactly going to be cheap for someone to buy every day.

Regardless of the photo ID, it's quite amusing that for something that is called SystemOne, it only allows tram travel on the one day tickets, but doesn't offer this option on the 7 day or even the 28 day or annual tickets.

I'm sure there are some internal reasons in TFGM to do that and perhaps down to cost and the price, but at the end of the day it makes for a very poor customer experience.

 

[radamfi]

Countycard for £33.30 a week allows unlimited travel by bus and train but Metrolink only in the city centre, so you would have to pay for that on top, which would be very expensive. To make the cost reasonably sensible you realistically have to choose either a rail or tram season ticket but not both if you travel before 0930, so you can add the Buscard Extra to it for bus travel if needed, or get a Countycard if you want unlimited train travel.

Metrolink weekly season tickets don't require a photocard.

Incidentally, what sights do they want to see? Most things worth seeing are in the city centre or nearby so it might not be necessary to travel so much, unless you want to see a lot of suburban areas and outer GM town centres.

 

[F Great Eastern]

What is defined as the "City Center" zone on the Metrolink?

Also what is the validity of season tickets since this can be found nowhere on the site, All I can find point to point tickets and not ones that can be used anywhere in a zone?

I know outside of the city center they want to see the Trafford area and their hotel is in the Salford area.

I was not considering train for them, they were thinking about the tram purely because they have hotel directions from the Metrolink station at Salford Quays and didn't want to get a bus out there because not being sure where to get off etc.

 

[telstarbox]

City Centre is Deansgate-Castlefield, Victoria, Piccadilly and the stations in between:

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/Documents/Services_Map_June2012.pdf

 

[F Great Eastern]

Thanks - how much does such ticket cost? The only season tickets I can get prices for are between two stations and not for each zone.

Also is there a ticket which would cover Trafford and Salford areas too?

 

[radamfi]

When you say "Trafford", do you mean Old Trafford, places like the Trafford Centre, or do you mean the whole Trafford borough including Urmston, Sale, Altrincham?

The Metrolink network has historically been split into lettered zones as fares were/are banded in those groups, however the zone system was never concentric like London so there was no real point in advertising the zone system. I have seen future plans for a London-style ringed zone system somewhere so that would be beneficial in the future.

There is no tram season ticket that allows travel between Salford Quays, Old Trafford and the city centre. You need 2 season tickets for that, one from the city centre to Salford Quays and one from Cornbrook to Old Trafford, or a day ticket. It might be worth noting, however that Old Trafford is only a short walk from Salford Quays and MediaCity UK so you may be able to get by on a season ticket from MediaCity UK to the city centre, if you want to see the Lowry and Imperial War Museum North, which is on the Trafford side of the bridge from MediaCity UK.

 

[F Great Eastern]

When you say "Trafford", do you mean Old Trafford, places like the Trafford Centre

Yes, that area.

There is no tram season ticket that allows travel between Salford Quays, Old Trafford and the city centre. You need 2 season tickets for that, one from the city centre to Salford Quays and one from Cornbrook to Old Trafford

But those are point to point tickets, do they allow you to get off on any stops between the start and the end point of the season ticket or just the specified start and end points as specified on the ticket.

But as I said, the whole thing comes across as exceedingly unfriendly for an average person who doesn't use it on a regular basis and completely useless for a tourist and bewildering.

It's ridiculous you can get a day ticket to cover tram and bus but not a longer duration one, it just defies any sensible logic when it comes to how the products were thought out and a real lack of customer focus.

 

[radamfi]

But those are point to point tickets, do they allow you to get off on any stops between the start and the end point of the season ticket or just the specified start and end points as specified on the ticket.

But as I said, the whole thing comes across as exceedingly unfriendly for an average person who doesn't use it on a regular basis and completely useless for a tourist and bewildering.

It's ridiculous you can get a day ticket to cover tram and bus but not a longer duration one, it just defies any sensible logic when it comes to how the products were thought out and a real lack of customer focus.

I'm 99% certain you can get off at intermediate points using a season ticket, although I never considered that there might be a problem.

It really sounds like you are better off getting a day ticket each day if you aren't really sure where you are going and don't travel before 0930. Alternatively a Stagecoach Megarider could be good enough as they might go everywhere you need to go including the Salford Quays, Old Trafford and the Trafford Centre and just get a return ticket on the tram when you need to use it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed, I thought that a day ticket each day sounded better (but very expensive) but the 9.30am restriction is a bit of an issue I think to some degree, which is why a 7 day version of the same ticket, which does not exist unfortunately, would have been ideal because it wouldn't contain peak restrictions.

Generally what areas do Stagecoach and First cover in Manchester, I haven't been there since 2009 myself and I was only there for a few hours so I'm really unsure. However I must say that First and Stagecoach websites are much clearer than the ones run By TFGM as they clearly outline the options.

If they can get away with a Stagecoach megarider or a FirstWeek that will be obviously the better option I'd say since the validity is far clearer and less awkward than having to buy a ticket every single day and put up with the 9.30am restrictions.

Ideally season tickets should be zone to zone based tickets rather than station to station, for example if you got a ticket from a station in Zone A to Zone B you'd be able to travel for the week within those two zones, it'd make it far more easier and just leave the singles and returns to be strictly stations.

Obviously that isn't going to happen, but the Metrolink site would be vastly improved if they had a list of tickets and the options and clearly laid out validity information rather than directing everything through the ticket selector, the SystemOne ticketing system really needs to settle on products and offer 1 day, 7 day monthly and yearly tickets of the same products rather than totally different ones for each time frame.

 

[telstarbox]

I'm 99% certain you can get off at intermediate points using a season ticket, although I never considered that there might be a problem.

You can indeed. There are no 'break of journey' rules on Metrolink.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You can indeed. There are no 'break of journey' rules on Metrolink.

Thanks - That is one good thing at least.

 

[telstarbox]

Ideally season tickets should be zone to zone based tickets rather than station to station, for example if you got a ticket from a station in Zone A to Zone B you'd be able to travel for the week within those two zones, it'd make it far more easier and just leave the singles and returns to be strictly stations.

Interestingly, the Metrolink Conditions of Carriage do refer to zones for season tickets:

38. Metrolink Season Tickets (MST) are only valid: -
a) When (where required) they are accompanied by a current Metrolink Travel Club membership card; and
b) Where the membership number shown on the current Metrolink Travel Club membership card is shown on the MST; and
c) Within the dates specified on the MST; and
d) Within the route specified on the MST.
39. The holder of a valid MST is entitled to travel on Metrolink services without further payment provided that the journey made is wholly within the routes and the dates shown on the MST.
40. For journeys partly but not wholly within the routes shown on the MST, the holder of a valid MST must pre-purchase a ticket for that part of the journey outside the routes shown on the MST.
41. MST’s cannot be used for journeys wholly outside the routes shown on the MST’s unless a further ticket has been pre-purchased.
42. For the purpose of Conditions 38-41 above, routes are alphabetically lettered geographical areas within which valid MST’s may be used.

 

[radamfi]

Indeed, I thought that a day ticket each day sounded better (but very expensive) but the 9.30am restriction is a bit of an issue I think to some degree, which is why a 7 day version of the same ticket, which does not exist unfortunately, would have been ideal because it wouldn't contain peak restrictions.

Generally what areas do Stagecoach and First cover in Manchester, I haven't been there since 2009 myself and I was only there for a few hours so I'm really unsure. However I must say that First and Stagecoach websites are much clearer than the ones run By TFGM as they clearly outline the options.

If they can get away with a Stagecoach megarider or a FirstWeek that will be obviously the better option I'd say since the validity is far clearer and less awkward than having to buy a ticket every single day and put up with the 9.30am restrictions.

Ideally season tickets should be zone to zone based tickets rather than station to station, for example if you got a ticket from a station in Zone A to Zone B you'd be able to travel for the week within those two zones, it'd make it far more easier and just leave the singles and returns to be strictly stations.

Obviously that isn't going to happen, but the Metrolink site would be vastly improved if they had a list of tickets and the options and clearly laid out validity information rather than directing everything through the ticket selector, the SystemOne ticketing system really needs to settle on products and offer 1 day, 7 day monthly and yearly tickets of the same products rather than totally different ones for each time frame.

Stagecoach cover more of the interesting places than First, especially now since Stagecoach moved into the Salford Quays area by extending the route 50. Stagecoach cover most of south Manchester, although much of the area around Altrincham and a few parts of northern Trafford are only accessible on Arriva. However since Stagecoach's recent takeovers of Bluebird and First's Wigan depot Stagecoach now reach quite a few areas in the north of the conurbation.

This thread shows the current (largely unadvertised) zone system (which is just a few neighbouring stations in each zone) and the proposed new zone system:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78105

The old ticket machines used to require you to state the zone of your destination, and the ticket had the zone printed on it, but I guess people found that confusing so they changed to having normal station names on the tickets. However the underlying zone system still exists, and knowledge of it is required for selling through tickets from National Rail stations.

Obviously the fare system is not great, but I suppose most of the network is overcrowded so they don't need to make it more user-friendly as it would just get even more packed.

Clearly the main problem is the lack of unlimited season tickets valid before 0930 making some potential commutes very expensive.

 

[edwin_m]

Broadly speaking if you draw a line east-west through the City Centre, First runs north of it and Stagecoach runs south. There are a few exceptions but this has mostly been the case since the GM Buses network was split in two for privatisation.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Interestingly, the Metrolink Conditions of Carriage do refer to zones for season tickets:

Thanks!

Stagecoach cover more of the interesting places than First, especially now since Stagecoach moved into the Salford Quays area by extending the route 50. Stagecoach cover most of south Manchester, although much of the area around Altrincham and a few parts of northern Trafford are only accessible on Arriva.

So I guess that the Stagecoach weekly ticket at 12.50 will be a good buy, I doubt they will be going too far outside the Manchester area itself so hopefully they will not need to use Arriva to make it simpler. They want me to actually plan this visit for them in a sensible way as they found the whole thing completely confusing.

This thread shows the current (largely unadvertised) zone system (which is just a few neighbouring stations in each zone) and the proposed new zone system:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78105

I saw that map with about 15-20 different zones and almost had a heart attack, that really is very user unfriendly and really needs simplifying. Sure it is overcrowded, but that isn't a reason for not making it user friendly, it just says the people running it are complacent.

Clearly the main problem is the lack of unlimited season tickets valid before 0930 making some potential commutes very expensive.

I believe the weekly, monthly and annual is valid before 9.30am though and on the nightbus, but the daily one is not from what i read? Again there really should be some kind of consistency as that is what confused the friends, it seemed to be just a mish mash of tickets.

The daily and weekly tickets should have exactly the same terms and conditions as each other ideally, just being for longer periods of time. There also should be weekly tickets that cover bus and tram rather than just one day tickets.

 

[radamfi]

So I guess that the Stagecoach weekly ticket at 12.50 will be a good buy, I doubt they will be going too far outside the Manchester area itself so hopefully they will not need to use Arriva to make it simpler. They want me to actually plan this visit for them in a sensible way as they found the whole thing completely confusing.

It might be worth looking at the bus maps to see what routes are useful, particularly map 2 (Manchester South), which shows the city centre and much of Salford and Trafford as well. The bus stops are marked with dots. Check the bus timetable library or Stagecoach website to ensure the buses you want are run by Stagecoach. Magic Bus is also Stagecoach.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Pages/Network-maps.aspx

It sounds like route 50 will be useful which goes quite close to the hotel, although it may not be as close as the tram, although it shouldn't be far to walk from the bus stop near Anchorage tram stop. X50 (limited stop) goes between the Trafford Centre, Manchester United football ground and the city centre stops at the Imperial War Museum North which is across the water by footbridge from the Quays. 250 is the stopping version of that and has a slightly different route and doesn't stop at the IWM North.

On the Manchester South map, you can see that the frequent 42/43/142/143 routes go from Piccadilly to the university area, Rusholme (for the curry mile) and Owens Park where a lot of students live which might be an interesting route.

I believe the weekly, monthly and annual is valid before 9.30am though and on the nightbus, but the daily one is not from what i read? Again there really should be some kind of consistency as that is what confused the friends, it seemed to be just a mish mash of tickets.

What I meant is you can't get a weekly ticket for unlimited bus, tram and train travel.

 

[telstarbox]

I doubt there's sufficient demand for such a ticket to be honest as very few people would use all three modes multiple days of the week. It's more feasible to drive to work in Greater Manchester (apart from the city centre) than in London for example, and the tourism market is smaller.

 

[neilmc]

The Stagecoach Megarider is a bargain ticket at £12.50 although you have to be a bit carefully especially in the Sale/Altrincham areas since they tend not to operate the evening services (e.g. 370, X41). It's also valid at any time of day and can be used by anybody. You can simply buy one from the driver of the first bus you board so no messing about with photocards.

 

[edwin_m]

The Stagecoach Megarider is a bargain ticket at £12.50 ... You can simply buy one from the driver of the first bus you board so no messing about with photocards.

That's the driver of the first Stagecoach bus, not the first First bus.

 

[radamfi]

I doubt there's sufficient demand for such a ticket to be honest as very few people would use all three modes multiple days of the week.

The majority of people commuting by rail in GM go to the city centre so they wouldn't need all three modes. However people commuting to other places could easily need all three. For example, Ramsbottom to Stockport, Sholver to Manchester Airport. In fact anyone who needs the bus to get to the station and then go somewhere in GM that requires a train and a tram.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt there's sufficient demand for such a ticket to be honest as very few people would use all three modes multiple days of the week. It's more feasible to drive to work in Greater Manchester (apart from the city centre) than in London for example, and the tourism market is smaller.

Hard to tell if you don't offer the ticket. And it seems odd to make public transport more of a hassle for those who would need to use all three - presumably one of the aims of these tickets is to encourage use of public transport.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Personally in the case I posted about initially all three wasn't required, just bus and tram.

I just don't understand why there is a 1 day bus and tram ticket but not a 7 day.

 

[radamfi]

It is not so bad for regular commuters who don't use the train as they can get a Metrolink point-to-point season ticket combined with a Buscard Extra. However, they don't get to go on other lines without paying extra, unlike those who buy Daysaver tickets.

 

[Starmill]

Interestingly, the Metrolink Conditions of Carriage do refer to zones for season tickets:

38. Metrolink Season Tickets (MST) are only valid: -
a) When (where required) they are accompanied by a current Metrolink Travel Club membership card; and
b) Where the membership number shown on the current Metrolink Travel Club membership card is shown on the MST; and
c) Within the dates specified on the MST; and
d) Within the route specified on the MST.
39. The holder of a valid MST is entitled to travel on Metrolink services without further payment provided that the journey made is wholly within the routes and the dates shown on the MST.
40. For journeys partly but not wholly within the routes shown on the MST, the holder of a valid MST must pre-purchase a ticket for that part of the journey outside the routes shown on the MST.
41. MST’s cannot be used for journeys wholly outside the routes shown on the MST’s unless a further ticket has been pre-purchased.
42. For the purpose of Conditions 38-41 above, routes are alphabetically lettered geographical areas within which valid MST’s may be used.

That's very naughty of them to put that there! Those zones do NOT appear on the seasons (unless that's now changed?) and an index of which stops are in which zones is not available in the public domain - as far as I can see at least.

Potentially very confusing because if someone had a season to Pomona (not that I imagine anyone does) they could use it to go all the way to Eccles without buying another ticket, but who's gonna know that?