NYMR Line Capacity Questions

[ryan125hst]

I enjoyed watching a few YouTube videos of the NYMR yesterday, in particular their steam and diesel galas. I have visted the railway a few times before, but after watching them, I am hoping to go to a gala or two at some point.

Anyway, watching the videos and finding the timetables online gave me a few questions that I hope can be answered by someone on here.

I have noticed that, during gala days, they are able to run one extra train per hour between Grosmont and Goathland (normally a freight or the Great Northern Saloon), and occasionally between Pickering and Levisham. It seems that because of the length of the line between Goathland and Levisham, it is not possible to do the same thing between these stations.

What I wondered is how much signalling is their between stations? Is there nothing at all once the train has left, meaning that only one train can be on the line at once, or are there signals at more frequent intervals?

If the latter is the case, can they not send a second local train (Levisham to Goathland) immediately behind the Pickering to Gromont train? This could then wait outside the station until the train ahead has cleared the platform. I would have thought this won't delay the Pickering bound train by more than a few minutes (it would have to wait for the local train to get into the platform so that the single line is clear).

If this can be done, it could mean that there can be an extra train per hour between Grosmont and Goathland and maybe Pickering and Levisham as well.

Can someone explain this?

Also, what will happen to the Battersby services this year now that Northern are operating a Sunday service?

 

[Tomnick]

It's one long section between the crossing loops, so a second train can't leave Grosmont until the first has arrived at Goathland and surrendered the token.

 

[Spaceflower]

I presume they will stop running but they will still be running through to Whitby all summer. I must have a bash soon.....

 

[ryan125hst]

It's one long section between the crossing loops, so a second train can't leave Grosmont until the first has arrived at Goathland and surrendered the token.

Is this different then coming out of Pickering? I have just watched this video (not mine) and have notice that there are several colour light signals between Pickering station and New Bridge.

 

[Tomnick]

It's TCB-ish (one of the NYMR folk might be able to confirm!) between Pickering and New Bridge, all worked from the box at the latter. They collect the staff (is it still staff and ticket?) there for the section to Levisham or Goathland. I suppose you might be able to have a second one away from Pickering to await acceptance at New Bridge...with the risk of getting horribly entangled if you're not careful!

 

[ffm]

What I wondered is how much signalling is their between stations? Is there nothing at all once the train has left, meaning that only one train can be on the line at once, or are there signals at more frequent intervals?

1. None
2. Yes
3. No

The line is worked as a single line (with token), with passing loops at Goathland and Levisham. The line from Pickering to New Bridge is TCB then single line token. There would be no point despatching a second train from Pickering to the 'box, to follow a previous one, as all this would mean is it sitting there for at least 20 minutes, worse still most trains cross at Levisham so you would have blocked the line. The Grosmont to Goathland shuttle is run as it is the shortest section and also these are two 'destination' stations. Many fewer people travel to Levisham as a destination, making a shuttle from Pickering to Levisham rather less valuable. Levisham to Goathland would be even less so, as Goathland is not the busiest starting point for NYMR visitors and, again, Levisham less so. Also this is the longest section and a shuttle would occupy too much capacity and the normal full line service is more than adequate.

 

[Ploughman]

There has been various suggestions of Redoubling some sections of the line but the only practical location to do this would be an extended loop in the vicinity of Newtondale Halt towards Goathland.
This would roughly halve the section. Anywhere else on the line would not create any worthwhile benefit.
The major problem with this is that over the years a policy of curve realignment to get rid of check rail has meant that the single track now makes great use of the full width of the double track alignment.
In some locations bridges have been rebuilt further restricting the options.

 

[Spaceflower]

How often do they introduce the Whitby timetable?

 

[ffm]

Twice a year, once in March - summer timetable and then again in November - winter timetable. Check their website www.nymr.co.uk

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I Went of the NYMR on Easter Saturday and Sunday, I was surprised that all trains only seemed to have 5 coaches as it was very busy, normally when I have been there before it has been 6 or 7. There were also more diesel running, owing to the the cold weather and suitable overnight storage shortages for steam locos at Pickering. They are looking forward to the renovations at Whitby as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, as these will improve operations at that part of the line.

 

[scarby]

I went on the NYMR last week.

I always try to go when it is quiet. But every time I go I notice - how can I put it - that it seems they have a bit of a "struggle" to keep the trains on time. This isn't a criticism, just an observation, and it's not as if there were big delays, but over the course of the day several trains were running 5-10 minutes late. The turnaround at Whitby in particular seems very tight. I would have thought 30 minutes for this would make things much more workable.

It makes me wonder what it is like when it is very busy and the peak timetable is running. It really can't be much fun for the staff/volunteers trying to run up against the clock all the time? I realise it is difficult because the trains have to meet at the loops, but maybe the timetable could be completely re-cast so there was more time - perhaps with an earlier start and later finish?

As I say, this isn't a criticism, because I always have a terrific day out with a great variety of stock running. It was also very good to see D5032 in the workshop undergoing a complete overhaul.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I went on the NYMR last week.

I always try to go when it is quiet. But every time I go I notice - how can I put it - that it seems they have a bit of a "struggle" to keep the trains on time. This isn't a criticism, just an observation, and it's not as if there were big delays, but over the course of the day several trains were running 5-10 minutes late. The turnaround at Whitby in particular seems very tight. I would have thought 30 minutes for this would make things much more workable.

It makes me wonder what it is like when it is very busy and the peak timetable is running. It really can't be much fun for the staff/volunteers trying to run up against the clock all the time? I realise it is difficult because the trains have to meet at the loops, but maybe the timetable could be completely re-cast so there was more time - perhaps with an earlier start and later finish?

As I say, this isn't a criticism, because I always have a terrific day out with a great variety of stock running. It was also very good to see D5032 in the workshop undergoing a complete overhaul.

I think they did bring in some new timings with this summer's timetable, they do also have to fit in with the Northern Trains schedule in connectioin with the Whitby services too. See my above comments, hopefully the agreed finance now being place, they are going to bring in to use the other platform at Whitby and I think have a loop there which should speed up the turn around. I agree with you, it is a great line.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I went on the NYMR last week.

I always try to go when it is quiet. But every time I go I notice - how can I put it - that it seems they have a bit of a "struggle" to keep the trains on time. This isn't a criticism, just an observation, and it's not as if there were big delays, but over the course of the day several trains were running 5-10 minutes late. The turnaround at Whitby in particular seems very tight. I would have thought 30 minutes for this would make things much more workable.

It makes me wonder what it is like when it is very busy and the peak timetable is running. It really can't be much fun for the staff/volunteers trying to run up against the clock all the time? I realise it is difficult because the trains have to meet at the loops, but maybe the timetable could be completely re-cast so there was more time - perhaps with an earlier start and later finish?

As I say, this isn't a criticism, because I always have a terrific day out with a great variety of stock running. It was also very good to see D5032 in the workshop undergoing a complete overhaul.

The available Whitby paths define the rest of the timetable. It is the same three available, whatever timetable we have to cast round it. Whitby is tight, but workable. What makes it harder, is only being able to run out of one platform, onto the EVL, at Grosmont (work in hand to change this), or having to change loco there too (depending on the availability of NR passed traction).

It always has been hard graft there, especially peak season with 7 - 8 coach trains, and no scope to be dawdling about, else you hold everything else up. No a railway for those, who just want to pose about, having their picture taken!

Should be a lot easier with the second Whitby platform, as we really do need a shorter operating day off peak. The present timetable is too resource intensive, IMHO.

 

[ryan125hst]

I've got another question. How do they path charter trains?

According to their website, you can hire the Great Western Saloon, Great Northern Saloon or even the four coach pullman train. According to the prices, you can either have them attached to a scheduled service or have it run as a dedicated service.

Attaching it to another service is easy, just shunt the saloon onto the rake of coaches. I'm guessing that they will use the full pullman rake (with standard class coaches for the public in addition to the pullman coaches) when that set is hired.

But how do they path it when people hire a full train? I know that they have the capacity between Grosmont and Goathland, and between Levisham and Pickering. The question is how do they work the Goathland to Levisham section as there seems to be no spare capacity? Can it even be done during the gold timetable or do people have to wait for a quieter timetable so there are spare paths?

Ryan
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, is Goathland to Levisham, and Levisham to New Bridge Electric Token Block now, or is it still Train Staff and Ticket?

 

[Ploughman]

The NYMR does not use its full amount of available paths all year round so there is often a spare path possibility that can be used.

Currently Staff and Ticket is still in use but liable to change within the year.
To a Broadband based system.
Don't ask me the details as I know nothing about that.

 

[ryan125hst]

Currently Staff and Ticket is still in use but liable to change within the year.

How does that work then? Looking at the 40th Anniversary Gala timetables, at times, a freight train or saloon departs Levisham a couple of minutes after a train arrives at Pickering. That would be possible with an Electric Token Block, but would need someone to take the staff by road from New Bridge to Levisham. New Bridge is only about five minutes away from Pickering. Surely they can't drive from New Bridge to Levisham and hand the staff over in seven minutes?

 

[Tomnick]

The clue's in the name - staff and ticket. First one goes through on a ticket after being shown the staff, with the staff following on the last one in that direction. Works well until you 'wrong end' the staff .

 

[ryan125hst]

The clue's in the name - staff and ticket. First one goes through on a ticket after being shown the staff, with the staff following on the last one in that direction. Works well until you 'wrong end' the staff .

I didn't realise that! It is still a lot more restrictive than Electic Token Block though.

The NYMR does not use its full amount of available paths all year round so there is often a spare path possibility that can be used.

I think this is the case between Grosmont and Goathland, and also between Pickering and Levisham (but slightly less so), other than during the Galas. The question i'm asking is how do they path charter trains (such as the saloons) on the Levisham to Goathland section? It takes almost half an hour each way on single track with no passing loops. If you look at the gold timetable, there are no paths.

For example, a train leaves Levisham at 11:20 and arrives at Goathland at 11:50. A train then leaves Goathland at 11:50 and arrives at Levisham at 12:20, where another train is waiting to leave for Goathland.

I understand that the trains will arrive a few minutes before the times above as they are departure times (arrival times can be seen on the Gala timetables). However, this wouldn't be enough time to send another train.

How do they do it?

 

[Tomnick]

Staff and ticket works ok until you try to change plans at the last minute (regulating a late runner, for example, or an additional move). On the plus side, if traffic is generally unbalanced (more one way than the other), you don't have to keep transferring tokens!

I'd guess charter trains are out of the question between Levisham and Goathland during the peak season (except evenings, possibly?). A nice little earner on quieter days though, I'm sure. On a similar theme, on the GC, loco-hauled driver experience trains only run midweek, as there's no suitable paths south of Rothley at weekends (you've only got time to run a light loco to Leicester and back between the passengers, not a train that needs to run round).

 

[E&W Lucas]

The question i'm asking is how do they path charter trains (such as the saloons) on the Levisham to Goathland section? It takes almost half an hour each way on single track with no passing loops. If you look at the gold timetable, there are no paths.


How do they do it?

Firstly, it doesn't happen very often. The usual request is the GW Saloon onto a service train. A charter train is most often in the form of an extra evening diner service; also photo charters, run out of normal operating hours. As stated above, it is easy enough to slot in an extra service, using a vacant path on the off peak timetable. Or, as many requests will be for a diner service, run that set, vice a service rake, on a timetables slot, but with reduced standard availability. Possible on some paths, with care.

 

[ryan125hst]

Firstly, it doesn't happen very often. The usual request is the GW Saloon onto a service train. A charter train is most often in the form of an extra evening diner service; also photo charters, run out of normal operating hours. As stated above, it is easy enough to slot in an extra service, using a vacant path on the off peak timetable. Or, as many requests will be for a diner service, run that set, vice a service rake, on a timetables slot, but with reduced standard availability. Possible on some paths, with care.

That makes more sense. I'm guessing that if someone requested a private GW saloon during the gold timetable, the answer would either be: yes, but in the evening (as there is a two hour gap of trains leaving Goathland); yes but we'll have to put you on the back of a service train; or no, unless you want wait until and off peak day (which is never in August)!

Even the yellow Sunday timetable has no paths from what I can see!