Fare evaders - what happens if they run?

[jon0844]

Would you need machines on an Intercity train where there's a TM and the stops are usually further apart?

I'd see it more for the Pacers and the like on quieter routes.

Only if we begin to get intelligent charging based on the train you use, including other 'clever' things like upgrading to first class by touching in to first class, would we need EVERY train to be so fitted. I think the industry will do things one step at a time, but if a reader is needed in every vestibule then I hardly think it would be hard to do - or necessarily that expensive.

 

[island]

I was thinking rather more about the two car 165 on the local Branch.

You were asked directly about a Pendolino.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

You were asked directly about a Pendolino.

A carriage in a Pendolino has two doors each side, about 80 seats and doesn't use my local Branch line. A touch in reader of the style of those on buses wouldn't seem difficult to include in the design. If you installed a self service ticket machine, you'd have two or three per train.

 

[transmanche]

How many doors does a bus have?
How many doors does a full length Pendolino have?

A Boris Bus has (IIRC) four card readers spread between its three sets of doors. I don't think the readers are that expensive, so one per train vestibule might be appropriate (two for busy commuter routes where standing is the norm).

 

[rdwarr]

Our somewhat suspicious friend from the OP was on form again today. Same train and, as soon as she spotted someboddy in a yellow jacket making his way down the train (as we passed through Hatfield), she made a beeline for the toilet where she remained until King's Cross.
In fact it wasn't an RPI. It was a just a bloke in a yellow jacket who also wanted to use the toilet and was (somewhat liteally) peed off when he found it occupied for the rest of the journey.
She seems to have a friend. I wonder if there's some sort of "passback" thing going on.

 

[jon0844]

I nearly always board trains out of King's Cross by walking to the last carriage. It's quieter there and I'm always going to get a seat without hassle.

Consequently, as a Hatfield resident, I'll 9/10 walk back through the train (if I can) to be at the London end to alight - saving a long walk on the platform.

Given how often I do this, I can safely say that the looks of horror I get when I walk through is still amusing all these years on! So many people giving an obvious double take in case I present a card and announce myself as a plain-clothed RPI.

Sadly, such walks (especially at night when the trains are a bit more empty and people might have had a drink or three) also reveal just how many people put their feet on seats. At times, it can seem like about 50% of those sitting on non-airline seats (but that's for another thread).

 

[edwin_m]

If smartcard readers/validators were on trains then a lot of people would just ignore them and hope to get to one if they saw the RPI approaching. Putting them on stations is likely to be easier (fewer are needed, no need for radio links etc, validator knows where it is without need for location system).

 

[jon0844]

Onboard validators would encode the time a card/ticket was validated, and I am sure it would be possible to turn them off if a revenue check was going to be carried out. RPI boards at one end, opens a panel, turns a key or whatever..

When we get smart ticketing, I think on-train validators will be necessary to ensure people are correctly charged, based on the service they're on - perhaps based on time of day, the TOC, the stopping pattern (slow train over fast train being cheaper) or whatever criteria the industry decides to come up with.

To get people to do it, I'd imagine a system like Oyster today where you are going to be charged the maximum fare from A to B unless you validate to receive a discount (like using a pink reader around London to avoid being charged for going via zone 1).

But that's a long way off I think!

 

[185]

A Boris Bus has (IIRC) four card readers spread between its three sets of doors. I don't think the readers are that expensive, so one per train vestibule might be appropriate (two for busy commuter routes where standing is the norm).

The only problem in foreign countries is when the staff approach the queue for the validator, or ticket machine in some cases instantly goes right down the aisle.

Good System = Flawed

A solution seen in Italy, is to temporarily turn off the validators as the staff appear for a ticket check.

 

[edwin_m]

Onboard validators would encode the time a card/ticket was validated, and I am sure it would be possible to turn them off if a revenue check was going to be carried out. RPI boards at one end, opens a panel, turns a key or whatever..

When we get smart ticketing, I think on-train validators will be necessary to ensure people are correctly charged, based on the service they're on - perhaps based on time of day, the TOC, the stopping pattern (slow train over fast train being cheaper) or whatever criteria the industry decides to come up with.

To get people to do it, I'd imagine a system like Oyster today where you are going to be charged the maximum fare from A to B unless you validate to receive a discount (like using a pink reader around London to avoid being charged for going via zone 1).

But that's a long way off I think!

I think you're contradicting yourself. Encoding the time would be fine for a simple system, such as flat fare valid for an hour, but as you suggest a smartcard validator would need to do a lot more and would probably need a live link to the back office. This is surely much more easily done if the validator is on the platform. It would also largely eliminate the fraud problem especially if the inspectors work on trains rather than platforms, failure to validate before joining the train indicating intention to avoid payment.

 

[jon0844]

Why would the system on a train HAVE to have a live link anywhere?

When you touch your card on the train, it will store some data on it. When you touch out at your destination, you'll be charged as appropriate. Are buses connected to anywhere live?

That's assuming a PAYG way of paying for things of course. Maybe for long distance journeys, people will just be loading tickets on their card and having to make certain decisions in advance just as they do today.

There's no reason not to have validators on platforms too.

It will all depend on how ticketing changes. Sometimes you might need to verify what train you took, other times it might be the route you took. I hope that whatever ATOC decides, it will be the best solution.

 

[transmanche]

Are buses connected to anywhere live

I don't disagree with your main point, but I'm not aware of any bus-based smartcard system in the UK which requires a touch-on/touch-off. The Oyster system in London works with touch-on only, because it's a flat-fare. (I don't know if working towards a London-wide flat-fare system was a pre-requisite of Oyster, or just an extension of the policy that started back in the 1980s.

However, I don't see having a live (or near-live) system is an insurmountable problem. Modern trains make use of GPS and/or lineside balises to 'know' their position. Mobile communication is getting better all the time - even if public networks have to be used, rather than GSM-R.

But as you say, this is probably only an issue for PAYG - and this may be delivered by a back-office calculation, rather than an on-board one. And for other ticket types (including those that don't even exist today), having constant onliine connectivity may not be a requirement.

 

[jon0844]

I fully expect trains will be able to report information live in the future. Many can now, but with a mish-mash of different systems, not all using one single connection. The train of tomorrow will presumably have its own network, which everything from CCTV and PIS can link into, along with train tracking systems etc - and the train itself has a single connection, whether that's 3G/4G/WiMax/Satellite or whatever.

But, I am not sure an onboard system needs anything more than a touch in - as you'd still touch in at your start station and out at your destination. The touch wouldn't necessarily be to charge anything, but merely to calculate the correct fare (e.g. a slow train vs Intercity, travelling on a train at a quieter time of the day).

The same system could also allow you to do things like upgrade to first class on a train, which - again - wouldn't need to be reported anywhere live, and could debit funds off the card, or - potentially - charge it to you later, if we ever saw a system that enabled train payments to be made on a monthly account basis (e.g. for companies).

Frankly, there are millions of ideas that can become possible with smartcards and I doubt we'll see much clever stuff for some time. The first stage will be to gradually introduce a system and get rid of paper tickets.

What is perhaps more important, especially on this specific thread, is proper enforcement and punishments for people that don't comply. That's why I think the industry would likely seek to introduce a system that is a little more 'failsafe' by having people run the risk of paying more if they DON'T touch the various validators - on train or on platform - because that's how a cheaper fare will be calculated.

 

[transmanche]

What is perhaps more important, especially on this specific thread, is proper enforcement and punishments for people that don't comply. That's why I think the industry would likely seek to introduce a system that is a little more 'failsafe' by having people run the risk of paying more if they DON'T touch the various validators - on train or on platform - because that's how a cheaper fare will be calculated.

I agree. In fact (IMHO) it's the one big 'fail' of the Oyster system, in that it's not mandatory for season ticket holders to touch-in/out within their zones. Making it mandatory from the start would have 'encouraged good behaviour' - making it mandatory now would be hard to do. And why is this important? Well, because as the largest deployment of travel smartcards in the country, there are now millions of people who will expect the TOCs ITSO cards to work in exactly the same way as their Oyster cards - thus leading to inevitable complaints and issues.

 

[pjnathanail]

I don't disagree with your main point, but I'm not aware of any bus-based smartcard system in the UK which requires a touch-on/touch-off. The Oyster system in London works with touch-on only, because it's a flat-fare. (I don't know if working towards a London-wide flat-fare system was a pre-requisite of Oyster, or just an extension of the policy that started back in the 1980s.

Trent Barton's mango card scheme relies on a touch on then touch off system, giving 25% off cash fares. If you don't touch off you are charged until the buses final destination. Trent Barton cover long routes such as Nottingham-Chesterfield or Derby-Uttoxeter so a flat fare doesn't work. They use init ticket machines linked via 3G to a computer somewhere.

 

[island]

I agree. In fact (IMHO) it's the one big 'fail' of the Oyster system, in that it's not mandatory for season ticket holders to touch-in/out within their zones. Making it mandatory from the start would have 'encouraged good behaviour' - making it mandatory now would be hard to do. And why is this important? Well, because as the largest deployment of travel smartcards in the country, there are now millions of people who will expect the TOCs ITSO cards to work in exactly the same way as their Oyster cards - thus leading to inevitable complaints and issues.

They couldn't make it mandatory from the start because many NR stations within the zones didn't have Oyster readers.

 

[Flamingo]

Our somewhat suspicious friend from the OP was on form again today. Same train and, as soon as she spotted someboddy in a yellow jacket making his way down the train (as we passed through Hatfield), she made a beeline for the toilet where she remained until King's Cross.
In fact it wasn't an RPI. It was a just a bloke in a yellow jacket who also wanted to use the toilet and was (somewhat liteally) peed off when he found it occupied for the rest of the journey.
She seems to have a friend. I wonder if there's some sort of "passback" thing going on.

If you spot her again and felt so inclined, point her out to the train staff, so they can arrange a reception committee for her that could contain BTP. The RPI involved in the first incident would probably remember her.

 

[edwin_m]

I do agree some ticketing systems would work with on-train validators. But I don't see why there is any reason to bother with them, considering that:

- Except for the most rural lines, there are many more train doors than station accesses so more validators will be needed.

- Where stations were barriered these would also carry out the validation function, further reducing the amount of new kit required.

- The issues related to location and communication, which can indeed be surmounted but "nothing is more reliable than the equipment you didn't fit".

- The RPI issue as discussed, which I also agree is surmountable but again isn't it better to prevent it in the first place? On a service with frequent stops the RPI would have to re-activate the validators at each one and the whole system would become unworkable.

- Longer dwell times if everyone has to touch a validator before alighting or after boarding before moving beyond the vestibule.

- Risk that a card in the pocket of someone standing near the validator would be read when not intended, again surmountable but introduces extra complication.

- Loss of standing capacity due to the space taken up by the validators.

 

[jon0844]

-Risk that a card in the pocket of someone standing near the validator would be read when not intended, again surmountable but introduces extra complication.

I'd say that's a rather unlikely scenario.

- Loss of standing capacity due to the space taken up by the validators.

I've been on trains in Sweden with validators by the doors and it didn't seem to impact massively on space. Just put it in an area where people might normally stand, or store bags. Such a machine isn't exactly big (remember the validators on bendy buses?).

 

[edwin_m]

Even when inadvertent reading of a smartcard is extremely improbable, steps will have to be taken to ensure there is no possibility of it happening and this will introduce extra complexity and cost. There have already been stories of double reading of Oysters and contactless bank cards on buses, and if there is the remotest possibility of it happening then sooner or later either it will happen or some chancer will use it as an excuse for getting away with something.

 

[jon0844]

Double scanning if someone waves their wallet that has more than one card inside is a bit different than simply brushing by.

In any case, I see systems on trains as merely validating and recording information on a smart card ticket, not charging a fare there and then and certainly not debiting a payment card.

 

[DarloRich]

I am not sure how much legal authority a ticket inspector/revenue type has to go chase after some one once they leave the station and reach the real world then detain them and then bring them back, perhaps unwillingly, to a station.

 

[rdwarr]

I am not sure how much legal authority a ticket inspector/revenue type has to go chase after some one once they leave the station and reach the real world then detain them and then bring them back, perhaps unwillingly, to a station.

As they don't appear to have the authority to do that within a station I'd guess none at all. It seems like only the Police can do that.

 

[Flamingo]

As they don't appear to have the authority to do that within a station I'd guess none at all. It seems like only the Police can do that.

They do have the authority - but the TOC's don't want them to do so as it opens a can of worms regarding liability when someone gets hurt.

 

[Antman]

In my opinion, the issue isn't a complicated grey area, but a simple one: You do NOT get on a train without already having bought a ticket for your journey prior to getting on it.

That assumes the ticket office was open or at least a ticket machine was working, also isn't there another 'rule' that passengers have to be served with five minutes? If somebody arrives say 10 minutes before their train is due to leave and finds a long queue at the window they can hardly be expected to miss their train can they?

In fairness most rail staff are quite reasonable in such circumstances but a 'no ticket/ no excuses' policy will never work.

 

[Antman]

They do have the authority - but the TOC's don't want them to do so as it opens a can of worms regarding liability when someone gets hurt.

Anybody has the right, in theory at least, to make a citizens arrest however they themselves could end up being prosecuted for assault so I can understand TOC's telling their staff not to physically touch passengers who may be identified later by CCTV.

 

[michael769]

I am not sure how much legal authority a ticket inspector/revenue type has to go chase after some one once they leave the station and reach the real world then detain them and then bring them back, perhaps unwillingly, to a station.

They have the same authority as does any citizen to detain criminals until the police arrive.

That "authority" while it exists is, to say the least, a bit of a minefield for the unwary, and so the ToCs advice not to go down that route is probably wise.

 

[furlong]

They have the same authority as does any citizen to detain criminals until the police arrive.

And additionally:


Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5

 

[bb21]

That assumes the ticket office was open or at least a ticket machine was working, also isn't there another 'rule' that passengers have to be served with five minutes? If somebody arrives say 10 minutes before their train is due to leave and finds a long queue at the window they can hardly be expected to miss their train can they?

It is a myth. There is no such rule that you must be served within 10 minutes, as this can be affected by a large number of random factors. It is only a guideline. However if you spent 10 minutes waiting and still did not get served, and you were about to miss your train, and there is not another one due shortly, I would imagine most guards showing discretion and selling you the ticket you need onboard, if you ask them before boarding.

To answer your question, officially speaking you will be expected to miss your train in those circumstances, nevertheless I would be very surprised if you are refused boarding in the majority of cases.

Encounters at ticket barriers may vary if one exists at your departure station.

 

[michael769]

And additionally:


Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5

I would argue that it is unclear if that power would extend to cases where the suspect has left railway land.