Ticket Vending Machine - Card Only

[DB Man]

Hi, my local station (London Midland) has just had a ticket vending machine installed. On closer inspection, it seems that this machine will only accept card payments.

Hypothetically speaking, would you consider a lack of cash purchasing facilities to be a good enough reason for not having a valid ticket?

Many thanks

 

[district]

You may find the following threads of interest:

No alternative available method to pay
Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?

 

[northwichcat]

I personally think it would be unreasonable to except you to have to pay by card. You might have enough cash and need to use the reminder of the balance on your card for something that you can't pay for in cash e.g. an online transaction.

However, if you want to pay by card then you must purchase before boarding if the machine is working and offers the ticket you require.

 

[gordonthemoron]

there is/was a sign at Bletchley saying if you wanted to pay cash when the ticket office is closed (which it often is) you can pay on the train or at your destination rather than using the card only TVM

 

[jb]

You may find the following threads of interest:

No alternative available method to pay
Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?

Of interest, perhaps, but mostly useless. They mostly contain confident (yet incorrect) assertions of what's what, based on what people think is reasonable rather than the actual position.

The answer to the OP's question is "no". More accurately, what people consider is moot; it is not a valid reason, unless there was something like that reported at Bletchley.

In practice, however, things would almost always be fine.

 

[soil]

Only cash is legal tender, so you would have an absolute defence to any attempt at prosecution.

Clearly it would be absurd to require people to possess a credit card, in a certain brand, in order to travel by train.

 

[transmanche]

Only cash is legal tender, so you would have an absolute defence to any attempt at prosecution.

Clearly it would be absurd to require people to possess a credit card, in a certain brand, in order to travel by train.

However, 'legal tender' doesn't mean what most people think it means...

 

[Goatboy]

The answer to the OP's question is "no".

The answer to the OP's question is not 'no'. We have not yet reached a point where people who do not have a credit card are banned from the railways.

 

[jb]

The answer to the OP's question is not 'no'. We have not yet reached a point where people who do not have a credit card are banned from the railways.

I'm somewhat surprised to say that I've finally found something on paper that alludes to something referring to choice of payment method. Extract from the SRA's Penalty Fares Policy posted in another recent thread.

We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:
<snip>

• passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines or a ‘permit to travel’ machine, and who have enough money (or a credit or debit card) to buy a ticket but not in the form needed to use the ticket or ‘permit to travel’ machine;
• passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines and who claim that the machines were accepting coins only, or the exact fare only, and the passenger did not have the necessary coins (unless the authorised collector can confirm that the machines were in fact working normally);

Note that it's an "expectation of discretion" rather than an absolute right and that it refers to Penalty Fares schemes. It would seem that we are some way short of having anything like this in the NRCoC and/or Byelaws. I also note the report in another recent thread that suggests FGW (not a PF operator) allows its collectors to adopt an, erm, potentially less flexible approach to TVMs, available modes of payment, and customer claims.

Nonetheless it's some evidence that (at least some) operators will commit on paper to the application of discretion about these issues.

 

[jon0844]

Rail staff - and by the sounds of it TOCs themselves - can sadly argue that they have discretion one minute and that they haven't the next, depending on whether it helps them or not.

What's needed are clear and defined rules, and the general public accepting when rules are adhered to properly without going down the 'jobsworth' route.

I'd say that if a TVM was installed that was card only, you must be able to buy a ticket for cash on the train, from an RPI or at the destination (likewise if a ticket machine is showing as 'exact money only' and you don't have exact money*).

Of course, walking out without paying when you arrive is a different story - but the railway should ensure that there's no situation where you end up having little choice (such as no ticketing facilities at the other end either).

* Am I right in thinking that you can't even overpay if you wanted to? It's been ages since I've paid cash, but I know on the older machines you couldn't even voluntarily pay too much. Perhaps one option (in the future) might be to allow overpayment and then issue some sort of voucher for the remaining credit - perhaps in the form of a unique code/barcode that can be presented at a ticket office.

 

[gordonthemoron]

i had a problem with overpaying last year but I can't recall if it was in the UK or elsewhere in Europe

 

[jb]

What's needed are clear and defined rules, and the general public accepting when rules are adhered to properly without going down the 'jobsworth' route.

This is much much easier said than done.

I can't conceive a set of clear and defined rules that don't, in the final analysis, boil down to "only have to pay when challenged if boarding at a station with less than fully functional ticket office". Admittedly I cast a somewhat cynical eye over the issues but you have to when formulating unequivocal rules, don't you?

And all that is before you even go near the public acceptance part.

 

[jon0844]

The general public will one day have a major wake up call. They got it to a degree in 2008 when they maybe realised that borrowing beyond their means was a bad idea.

They'll one day realise that expecting to read news, download movies and listen to music for free wasn't actually good in the long run - as the quality of material drops markedly.

People may also realise that shouting loudest about their rights without accepting any of their responsibilities will come back to bite them too.

I have no idea when it will happen, but I am sure it will one day!

 

[Sleepy]

North Walsham (Bittern line) will shortly have a cards only type TVM installed, this route has been pay train only for many many years as all the stations (except Norwich, which is barried anyway) are unmanned. Will you be expected to pay before boarding or will only Anytime tickets be sold on train to cardholders ?

 

[34D]

North Walsham (Bittern line) will shortly have a cards only type TVM installed, this route has been pay train only for many many years as all the stations (except Norwich, which is barried anyway) are unmanned. Will you be expected to pay before boarding or will only Anytime tickets be sold on train to cardholders ?

I don't think any of us can give a definite answer, however in west yorks (where several of the established pay train stations have received card-only tvms) they are used as a supplementary aid to on-train sales.

Could try tweeting the TOC though.

 

[Haywain]

What's needed are clear and defined rules, and the general public accepting when rules are adhered to properly without going down the 'jobsworth' route.

The rules on Advance tickets are pretty clear and well defined, but the public still don't generally accept them.

 

[Goatboy]

The rules on Advance tickets are pretty clear and well defined, but the public still don't generally accept them.

The public generally do accept the rules of Advance tickets. You'll get the odd idiot no matter how clear things are.