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Canterbury West - Canterbury East

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SETCommuter

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Does anybody know if it's possible to purchase a ticket to travel between Canterbury West & Canterbury East ?

Yes, I know it's quicker to walk etc etc but just wondered if this was possible and to then undertake the journey in a loop via either Ramsgate or Ashford ?
 
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soil

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No it's not.

Tickets are issued to and from 'Canterbury Stations'

See however this recent thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1413214#post1413214

Also note that if you ask for a ticket from either station on NRE (or other site), then they will allow you to route round the loop, e.g., Canterbury West - Bekesbourne (you will need a via point to get this to work probably).

This despite the ticket being issued to Canterbury Stations. Obviously a Canterbury Stations - Canterbury Stations ticket is no ticket at all though.
 

SETCommuter

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Hmm, thanks for that. Upon looking, it seems that a Chartham to Bekesbourne ticket would be valid via both Ashford (the shortest route) and Ramsgate (within 3 miles of the shortest route) so that could make for quite a pleasant round trip.
 

SETCommuter

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So is it possible to get a Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations and go round Ramsgate?

From my limited knowledge of the routeing guide (which I'm still trying to learn), assuming you wish to go to Canterbury West then that would be the shortest route and therefore would be valid. I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable will confirm or otherwise
 

bb21

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From my limited knowledge of the routeing guide (which I'm still trying to learn), assuming you wish to go to Canterbury West then that would be the shortest route and therefore would be valid. I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable will confirm or otherwise

If the ticket is issued to Canterbury Stations then the shortest route will be one to Canterbury Stations. You cannot just choose which station is used.

If on the other hand the ticket is issued specifically to Canterbury West, then the matter is quite different.
 

soil

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So is it possible to get a Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations and go round Ramsgate?

Yes it is

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SIT/CBW/tomorrow/1515/dep?via=Ramsgate

SET might not like you doing this though (even though their website will sell you the ticket).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the ticket is issued to Canterbury Stations then the shortest route will be one to Canterbury Stations. You cannot just choose which station is used.

Citation for this?
 
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bb21

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Citation for this?

NRCoC Condition 13(a)(ii).

NRCoC Condition 13 said:
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;
(ii)
trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or

...
 

soil

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NRCoC Condition 13(a)(ii).

But there is no such station as 'Canterbury Stations'.

Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations is the same as

Sittingbourne - Canterbury East/Canterbury West, which means you may take either the shortest route from Sittingbourne to Canterbury East, or the shortest route from Sittingbourne to Canterbury West.

FWIW, which might not be very much, a Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations ticket is a ticket to cluster Q313, which includes Chartham, Chilham and Sturry, so you could just buy a ticket Sittingbourne - Chartham, use it to travel to Ramsgate, and then not have to bother with this argument.
 

bb21

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Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations is the same as

Sittingbourne - Canterbury East/Canterbury West, which means you may take either the shortest route from Sittingbourne to Canterbury East, or the shortest route from Sittingbourne to Canterbury West.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

FWIW, which might not be very much, a Sittingbourne - Canterbury Stations ticket is a ticket to cluster Q313, which includes Chartham, Chilham and Sturry, so you could just buy a ticket Sittingbourne - Chartham, use it to travel to Ramsgate, and then not have to bother with this argument.

Yes, you certainly could. :)
 

soil

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I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one.

You could argue it either way based on the T+Cs, but the online booking engines favour my interpretation, and you should be able to safely buy/book on this basis.
 

SETCommuter

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Upon looking, it seems that a Chartham to Bekesbourne ticket would be valid via both Ashford (the shortest route) and Ramsgate (within 3 miles of the shortest route) so that could make for quite a pleasant round trip.

Would anybody be able to confirm if my understanding here is correct ?
 

bb21

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You could argue it either way based on the T+Cs,

I don't think it can be valid both ways, however until this is tested in court we may never know which interpretation is correct.

but the online booking engines favour my interpretation, and you should be able to safely buy/book on this basis.

That could be one line of argument, and yes, I would expect it to be honoured. This does not though prove definitively who's interpretation of the rules is correct.

Would anybody be able to confirm if my understanding here is correct ?

I don't think it is within 3 miles.

Avoiding Ramsgate and going directly from Minster to Sandwich appears to fall within the tolerance level but not if going via Ramsgate.
 

soil

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Would anybody be able to confirm if my understanding here is correct ?

According to the spec for online routeing engines:

"The Local Journey is permitted if"

" the Local Journey is via the shortest route.
 the Local Journey is via the shortest route except for deviations via stations which are in the same station-group as a station on the shortest route.
 the length of the Local Journey is within a specified margin of the length of the shortest route"

"Journey within allowed margin of shortest route
The Local Journey is permitted if the distance of the actual journey is within a specified margin of the distance of the shortest route, if an allowed margin has been specified.
Any deviations or double-backs within that station-group should not be included in the distance calculation."

"Deviations within a station-group
Deviations within a station-group are allowed except when the journey origin station or destination station is part of that station-group.
If the Local Journey includes a station which is in the same station-group as any station on the shortest journey (excluding any station-groups containing the origin and destination stations) then this is considered a permitted deviation from the shortest route.
This includes both deviations to stations not on the shortest journey, and double-backs between stations which are on the shortest journey."

Minster and Ramsgate are both part of Ramsgate station-group.

We can measure the shortest route here:

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx

Chartham - Bekesbourne has its shortest route according to NRE data, of:

Chartham - Ashford International - Dover Priory - Bekesbourne
at 44.87 miles

The journey
Chartham - Minster 14.63 miles
Minster - Sandwich 4.76 miles
Sandwich - Bekesbourne via Dover 26.02 miles
is thus permitted, being 45.41 miles, and therefore within the permitted margin

If Minster was between Ramsgate and Sandwich, then the journey:

Chartham - Minster - Ramsgate - Dover Priory - Bekesbourne would be classed as a "permitted deviation from the shortest route"

However, Minster is NOT between Ramsgate and Sandwich, and therefore I suspect the distance is being calculated as follows:

Chartham - Minster 14.63 miles
Minster - Ramsgate - free permitted deviation
Ramsgate - Sandwich 8.34 miles
Sandwich - Bekesbourne via Dover 26.02 miles
=48.99 miles

which outside the permitted margin.

If Sandwich were included in the Ramsgate routeing group, then this would work fine.

The NRG btw, states:

"Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."

Tickets such as Sturry - Deal would be valid via Ramsgate of course, because you can conduct them on a train to and from the common routeing point (Ramsgate).
 

craigwilson

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Chartham - Bekesbourne has its shortest route according to NRE data, of:

Chartham - Ashford International - Dover Priory - Bekesbourne
at 44.87 miles

The journey
Chartham - Minster 14.63 miles
Minster - Sandwich 4.76 miles
Sandwich - Bekesbourne via Dover 26.02 miles
is thus permitted, being 45.41 miles, and therefore within the permitted margin

If Minster was between Ramsgate and Sandwich, then the journey:

Chartham - Minster - Ramsgate - Dover Priory - Bekesbourne would be classed as a "permitted deviation from the shortest route"

However, Minster is NOT between Ramsgate and Sandwich, and therefore I suspect the distance is being calculated as follows:

Chartham - Minster 14.63 miles
Minster - Ramsgate - free permitted deviation
Ramsgate - Sandwich 8.34 miles
Sandwich - Bekesbourne via Dover 26.02 miles
=48.99 miles

which outside the permitted margin.

If Sandwich were included in the Ramsgate routeing group, then this would work fine.

Tickets such as Sturry - Deal would be valid via Ramsgate of course, because you can conduct them on a train to and from the common routeing point (Ramsgate).

There are four services a day where the Charing Cross services call at Minster between Ramsgate and Sandwich - a reversal is required.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W46725/2013/04/23/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W46728/2013/04/23/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W45972/2013/04/23/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W45981/2013/04/23/advanced

Maybe I take a conservative viewpoint on these things, but I'd consider such a roundabout route between those two stations a bit dubious.That maybe just me though!!
 

Mojo

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The Southeastern booking engine does not allow travel between Ashford and Canterbury East via Dover.
This has changed fairly recently, as this used to be the case, and Southeastern have confirmed that they will accept tickets for travel this way.
 

bb21

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 the Local Journey is via the shortest route except for deviations via stations which are in the same station-group as a station on the shortest route.

Why am I surprised to find more inconsistency between the electronic version and the paper version? :roll:
 
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