Card declined on train, ticket man took details.

[mark17188]

Hi. I am writing to work out if possibly a fine could be issued to me. Well for starters, I got on at Mossley Hill station to Warrington Central, coming home from my halls of residence at university. It was about 2 minutes to the train arrived, so I rushed onto the platform obviously not buying a ticket beforehand.

Now with northern, I know you can buy a ticket on the train with no hassle whatsoever. Although I noticed I didn't have sufficient cash on me, I had my debit card. Anyway the inspector comes round a couple stops before Warrington and I state that I want a ticket from Mossley Hill to Warrington. No hesitation from me in purchasing; I actually got his attention to some extent. I ask to pay on card, enter my pin, to which he states my card was declined. I know that there is nothing wrong with my card, but infact his stupid chip and pin machine.

So he walks off, then arrives back a couple minutes later and asks me if I've got any id. I was reluctant at first, and asked him what was it about. He stated that my train fare would come through the post and that it would have to be payed off immediately. No fine. I gave him my details, but I couldn't help believe that he was bull****ting my completely so I would actually give my id and he could take my details.

Any thoughts?

 

[transportphoto]

Did you get anything? Such as a piece of paper headed 'Unpaid Fares Notice'?

TP

 

[mark17188]

Nope, received nothing. Just wrote my details down on a piece of paper and walked off. I'm almost certain aswell that I've payed on northern with my card and it worked fine.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You are obliged to have a valid ticket for travel before entering a train (Byelaw 18) unless one of the three exemptions apply. Being late is not one of those exemptions.

You are also legally obliged to give your name and address if required to do so.

 

[bb21]

Can you elaborate approximately when you caught the train at Mossley Hill and what day (weekday, Saturday or Sunday) it was?

 

[mark17188]

6.04pm on Friday 19th April (yesterday)

 

[tony_mac]

It seems that some Northern staff may have a habit of saying 'we will write to you for the fare' when actually they will write to you for the fare plus £80 or they intend to prosecute.
But, there isn't much you can do until the letter arrives.

 

[mark17188]

I asked him several times would it just be the fare, and he stated yes everytime. Surely they can't just lie?

 

[tony_mac]

No, they shouldn't lie, and to be more accurate we don't know that they ever have.
There have been unverified reports by people expecting to pay just the fare who have been asked for another £80, but that could just have been a misunderstanding.

You may well only be asked for the fare, but you will only find out for sure when you get the letter.

 

[bb21]

6.04pm on Friday 20th April (yesterday)

Thanks. So basically there is an open ticket office at Mossley Hill when you joined the train but you ignored it.

Hi. I am writing to work out if possibly a fine could be issued to me. Well for starters, I got on at Mossley Hill station to Warrington Central, coming home from my halls of residence at university. It was about 2 minutes to the train arrived, so I rushed onto the platform obviously not buying a ticket beforehand.

Now with northern, I know you can buy a ticket on the train with no hassle whatsoever.

That is not true. Although many of their guards will use discretion and issue a ticket when requested, you are required by the Railway Byelaws to purchase a valid ticket prior to boarding your service, should facilities exist at your origin station. As the ticket office was open when you joined the service, you are therefore in breach of the Byelaws.

Although I noticed I didn't have sufficient cash on me, I had my debit card. Anyway the inspector comes round a couple stops before Warrington and I state that I want a ticket from Mossley Hill to Warrington. No hesitation from me in purchasing;

That is good, as it could help demonstrate that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare, which would be prosecutable under a more serious legislation.

I actually got his attention to some extent. I ask to pay on card, enter my pin, to which he states my card was declined. I know that there is nothing wrong with my card, but infact his stupid chip and pin machine.

It could have been the chip & pin machine. It could equally have been your card. All cards have an offline transaction limit, and there could be a number of reasons why your payment was not authorised. As you ignored an opportunity to pay at the ticket office, who would have probably had a terminal that would be able to process online transactions, whether it was the fault of the machine or your card could potentially be a pointless argument.

So he walks off, then arrives back a couple minutes later and asks me if I've got any id. I was reluctant at first, and asked him what was it about. He stated that my train fare would come through the post and that it would have to be payed off immediately. No fine. I gave him my details, but I couldn't help believe that he was bull****ting my completely so I would actually give my id and he could take my details.

Any thoughts?

Without seeing the letter which will arrive in a few weeks' time, how do you know that he is telling porkies? Maybe he was telling the truth after all.

You need to, as a minimum, supply your name and address, as required by Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act, in the circumstances you found yourself in.

You could be asked to pay an administrative penalty of £80 together with your fare, however Northern may also elect to prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws, which you have no defence for and probably attracts a higher amount as a fine. If you refuse to pay the administrative penalty, you could well find yourself prosecuted.

Of course none of us can predict what Northern will do until the letter arrives. The best course of action for you at the moment is to sit down and write down exactly what happened on a piece of paper so that you do not contradict the account as to what happened submitted by the guard.

 

[Ferret]

I can say that there have been many occasions where my employers will only request payment of the fare after I've been unable to collect it and have merely been able to gather name/address details. It is not my decision to make as to whether a prosecution is appropriate or whether the passenger needs to pay the fare owed - as I guard, I'm not paid for that! TOCs know that some cards will not work with Avantix - and if ticket offices are temporarily shut, and we can't gain authorisation - what else are we to do?

Put simply, the OP needs to wait for a letter from the railway company, and see how they want to play it. No wrongdoing on your part equals pay the fare due and no more. If you've walked past an open ticket office, then you've breached byelaw 18 and can expect consequences (which members of this forum can assist with) - that's the upshot!

 

[island]

Failing to purchase a ticket before boarding when there are available ticket facilities is a criminal offence. As you appear to have committed this offence, you are liable to prosecution; however, Northern Rail normally offers first-time offenders the opportunity to discharge this liability by paying £80 plus the fare avoided.

While you say you were assured that you would be charged only the fare due, what would you have done differently if you had been told something else? I don't think it's a useful line of argument to say "but I was told I would only be charged the fare".

 

[snail]

Now with northern, I know you can buy a ticket on the train with no hassle whatsoever.

Next time you are at the station have a look for the posters telling you what will happen if you board a train without a ticket. Pretty much all the Northern stations have them.

 

[mark17188]

http://www.northernrail.org/northern/passengerscharter/buyingtickets

See on this I noticed:

"If you board a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities are available the conductor will sell you only the full single or return fare and you will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution."

 

[bb21]

http://www.northernrail.org/northern/passengerscharter/buyingtickets

See on this I noticed:

"If you board a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities are available the conductor will sell you only the full single or return fare and you will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution."

We have had discussions previously regarding the wording of this and cannot reach concensus. If you are interested in that discussion, you can find it here.

I don't think this absolves you of your legal responsibilities, although some others might disagree.

 

[185]

Mossley Hill is a Merseyside booking office - (supposed to be) open from first train to last train. There is no TVM (self service ticket machine) at this one.

 

[RPI]

I was under the impression from previous threads that Northern will only ask for the fare on the first offence but give a warning and then only give an £80 notice if stopped a second time? So if the OP hasnt been stopped before then there will be no "fine" (even though only a court can issue a fine.......").

 

[silencio]

Northern seem to issue the 'fine' on the first offence. Ive received one which Im currently dealing with. My situation isn't as simple as this and Im currently contesting it and awaiting a response.

 

[Chapeltom]

Mossley Hill is a Merseyside booking office - (supposed to be) open from first train to last train. There is no TVM (self service ticket machine) at this one.

I use Mossley Hill 4 days a week at a whole variety of times (between 8am and 9pm!) the ticket office is sometimes shut for short periods but there is always a notice on the door on A4 that this is the case and this usually happens in the day i.e. between 10 and 4 ish, I've never known it shut/temporarily closed at 6.

Whilst slightly off topic, if the ticket office was temporarily shut, how can they (passengers) prove this if they encounter issues with RPIs etc?

 

[radamfi]

Whilst slightly off topic, if the ticket office was temporarily shut, how can they (passengers) prove this if they encounter issues with RPIs etc?

I had this problem at Rochdale once (before the installation of the TVM) and I don't trust the guards to believe me when I saw the ticket office closed when it was meant to be open. So I took a photo and short video of the ticket office to prove it wasn't open. Unfortunately a member of staff then spotted me taking a photo and gave me a right verbal about taking photos on railway property. When I explained myself he said that the guard would believe me when I said the ticket office was closed. Sorry, but I'm not taking that risk.

If I didn't have proof that the ticket office was closed then there is effectively no train service so I would have to consider alternative means of transport, such as bus or taxi.

 

[johnnychips]

. Unfortunately a member of staff then spotted me taking a photo and gave me a right verbal about taking photos on railway property.

Is this illegal/against bylaws as long as a person isn't in the photo? No doubt a thread will exist somewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

I had this problem at Rochdale once (before the installation of the TVM) and I don't trust the guards to believe me when I saw the ticket office closed when it was meant to be open. So I took a photo and short video of the ticket office to prove it wasn't open. Unfortunately a member of staff then spotted me taking a photo and gave me a right verbal about taking photos on railway property. When I explained myself he said that the guard would believe me when I said the ticket office was closed. Sorry, but I'm not taking that risk.

If I didn't have proof that the ticket office was closed then there is effectively no train service so I would have to consider alternative means of transport, such as bus or taxi.

I'm new to this forum but I have no doubt the issue of the legality of taking photos has been discussed somewhere on here.

Quite possibly the person who stopped you was the one who was supposed to be in the ticket office and was afraid you would take the matter up with Northern or the PTE.

 

[radamfi]

Is this illegal/against bylaws as long as a person isn't in the photo? No doubt a thread will exist somewhere.

Yes, it is widely quoted on this forum that photographing is totally fine, and I mentioned it to the member of staff. It wasn't particularly relevant to this thread, but I was just telling the story as it happened.

 

[185]

I'm new to this forum but I have no doubt the issue of the legality of taking photos has been discussed somewhere on here.

Quite possibly the person who stopped you was the one who was supposed to be in the ticket office and was afraid you would take the matter up with Northern or the PTE.

Private land but all public places - staff and TOCs have little or no jurisdiction to prevent photographs being taken, especially photos which prove the operator failed to offer valid retail facilities, which in Merseyside attracts the train operating company, Northern (and not the passenger) with a fine in relation to their Squire - PTE Quality & Standards contract.

If shut, for any period, I would suggest reporting Northern Rail in the first instance to Merseytravel, every time. What's good for the goose.....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Railway property is private property. There is no allowance to take photographs at all, without the permission of the property owner or its agents.

 

[island]

Railway property is private property. There is no allowance to take photographs at all, without the permission of the property owner or its agents.

It is at least arguable that there is an implied licence to do so until and unless the owner or its agent withdraws it, as appears to have happened here, but the owner's only useful remedy is to ask the photographer to leave the premises.

 

[John @ home]

Railway property is private property. There is no allowance to take photographs at all, without the permission of the property owner or its agents.

This seems to me to be an "allowance to take photographs" at stations managed by Network Rail.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It is at least arguable that there's an implied licence to do so until and unless the owner or its agent withdraws it, as appears to have happened here, but the owner's only useful remedy is to ask the photographer to leave the premises.

Yes, the only remedy is to ask the person to leave the premises.

This seems to me to be an "allowance to take photographs" at stations managed by Network Rail.

Indeed. Which is why I wrote without the permission of the property owner or its agents. That permission can be revoked however.

There is none of this private property but public place nonsense. It's either private or public, unless the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (where it is private property but where the public are allowed access) applies which it clearly doesn't in a railway station.

 

[michael769]

Railway property is private property. There is no allowance to take photographs at all, without the permission of the property owner or its agents.

Unless there are notices to that effect or a member of the public is asked by staff not to take photographs, it would be very difficult to argue this - as private property or no as others have pointed out they would meet the everyday definition of public places.

It would be interesting to know ATOC's position on the matter, as a general ban on photography seems disproportionate and irrational.

Incidentally Scotrail expressly authorise photgraphy, I'd be surprised if the official line from any ToC would be much different.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is none of this private property but public place nonsense. It's either private or public, unless the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (where it is private property but where the public are allowed access) applies which it clearly doesn't in a railway station.

I am afraid you are wrong. The concept of a public place on private property crops up throughout Common Law, and numerous statutes (other than the one you quote) also have provisions that apply to public places that are on private property.

Indeed the right of the railway to film the public without their prior consent relies on stations being considered public places.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Perhaps, Michael, you could point out to me the law that states you can take photographs on private property as long as it's a public place? I would very much like to read it, as the Photographers Guide to UK Law does not draw such a distinction.