Railway staff lying to the BTP

[Stigy]

Worth pointing out also that s5.2 relates to detaining/arresting somebody after the refuse details and after not paying their fare. Very specific and not something you can do for all offences.

 

[RJ]

You certainly seem to attract the wrong kind of attention. The PF would be binned on appeal but I would advise calling three nines in future as B.e T.here P.erhaps are not the best at satisfactory resolutions. I hope you have a large collection of names for your legal actions although I can't quite figure how you managed to allow staff to treat you so appallingly without just "leaving" whichever environment you found yourself "held" in

I go by the book. I don't give these people anything to pin on me, especially now I've seen what measures they will go to in order to maintain their pride.

 

[Mintona]

Didn't you use to work for the railway RJ?

 

[RJ]

I hope you take them to the cleaners on these issues, based on what you wrote it's really outrageous behaviour.

Get your CCTV request in ASAP and via recorded mail - I know from experience that footage that may incrimminate the people taking the video has a tendency to be 'lost', and in my case it wasn't even from a closed shop like the Railways can be.

I hand delivered the CCTV request to the relevant address at Southeastern. They haven't entertained it, although they have a legitimate reason for not doing so and were helpful in advising me what to do next.

 

[RJ]

I've had a letter from Southeastern. They've basically declined to pass any specific comment on any element of the incident between Canterbury and Ashford International at this point, but say they are prepared to assist the police with their investigation.

 

[talltim]

Are the police actually investigating then?

 

[RJ]

That's what Southeastern appear to believe.

 

[soil]

Investigating on what basis - wrongdoing by you or wrongdoing by a railway employee?

 

[ModernRailways]

Investigating on what basis - wrongdoing by you or wrongdoing by a railway employee?

That's what I thought too. Are they investigating RJ or the staff member's?

Although from what I can tell, SE must be investigating the staff since they wouldn't send RJ a letter saying 'They aren't passing comment, but will assist the police in the matter'. That to me comes across that SE are investigating the staff member's who appear to have done wrong!

 

[RJ]

Investigating on what basis - wrongdoing by you or wrongdoing by a railway employee?

Certainly not me.

 

[DarloRich]

this makes for very odd and disturbing reading. There is certainly a rabbit off somewhere. I will reserve judgement on which side has released said rabbit and why because it is all so odd!

 

[RJ]

I couldn't agree more. If the OBM was unsure, he should have just withdrawn the ticket, issued me with a receipt, taken my details and gone on his merry way. I had a look in The Manual today and it's still listed in there as an extant procedure.

Alternatively, he could have arranged whatever he felt was necessary for where I was getting off at Stratford International. The delays and dramatics were entirely unnecessary.

I'm also going to be putting through a complaint about those staff at Paddington and hopefully I will receive a full and honest explanation as to why they did what they did. I have decided to let the Easter Sunday incident at Ashford International go.

 

[DarloRich]

RJ - may i also , respectfully, suggest you consider your values and behaviours and the impacts of those behaviours on others. I am not saying you aren't in the right but SOMETHING is wrong if the BTP are called out 4 times.

All i am trying to say is that discretion is sometimes the better sort of valour. Sometimes it is better to walk away.

(takes cover.............)

 

[ainsworth74]

I am not saying you aren't in the right but SOMETHING is wrong if the BTP are called out 4 times.

I'll repose a question I asked earlier at this point. If you have a passenger who you believe does not have a valid ticket but will not leave the train or pay any more money, what do you do? Just give up? Or do you call the BTP?

Of course the correct answer would be to withdraw the ticket, issue a free excess ticket to the passengers destination and complete a TIR allowing for further investigation but it would appear that either ego or, more likely, a training issue is meaning that this course of action is not being followed. So we come back to you only really having the two options above. Give up or call the BTP.

Sometimes it is better to walk away.

How do you do that when you're on a train? Walk to a different part of the train

 

[DarloRich]

Ainsworth - my view is that something is up if the police are called 4 times. The op can not be whiter than white in all this. After all he is refusing to leave private property when asked to do so by an authorised agent of the owner.

Furthermore, i would suggest that, despite being right, getting of the train might be the sensible thing to do. Might it not be sensible to look at WHY this is happening and try to avoid conflict.

Alternatively, we can just accept that evil railway staff are out to "get" a sainted member of the public.

 

[yorkie]

Yes - something is up. RJ was using tickets that are valid, but do not look valid. He then refuses to pay for a new ticket when he already has a valid ticket. (This can result in Mr Flibble getting very cross)

If you used the same tickets, and also refused to buy new tickets, you may well be in the same position (though your demographic profile may reduce the prospects slightly)

I've witnessed people be threatened with the police, but hardly any of it goes reported here. One occasion was because the guard refused to believe that the through trains rule existed, another because the guard refused to accept an itinerary and reservations. Mostly due to routeing anomalies though. Completely unacceptable, but it happens, as I say nearly always unreported. Younger passengers are far more likely to be bullied, though other aspects may well be at play too.

I know of people being prosecuted for adhering to an itinerary produced by a booking engine. One went to court and it proved costly for FCC.

Just because someone is prosecuted or has the police called on them does NOT necessarily mean they have done anything wrong.

 

[BestWestern]

Thanks for the tale of woe RJ, that gun accusation seems very very serious to me, maybe the armed response units could have turned up and with all that follows, "freeze" etc etc.
Maybe your EMT reputation has been passed on to all the TOCs.

Keep up the good work and all the best.

Is this really 'good work', honestly? I'm sorry to make negative comments, but could one be left with the impression that there is a disproportionate level of dispute with rail staff taking place here?

 

[yorkie]

Is this really 'good work', honestly? I'm sorry to make negative comments, but am I the only person who reads these and sees an enormous chip on a certain person's shoulder?

It is true that there is an enormous chip on the shoulders of one or two Guards/OBMs at SET & EMT, as evidenced by the fact it's not just RJ who experiences problems.

Making a hobby of going out and intentionally winding people up, however technically correct you may be, is hardly a positive contribution to the world, is it?

Who are you accusing of that, as that is a serious allegation?

And if you are suggesting that using a valid ticket is intentionally winding people up then I don't consider that a reasonable comment to make!

 

[Goatboy]

Is this really 'good work', honestly? I'm sorry to make negative comments, but am I the only person who reads these and sees an enormous chip on a certain person's shoulder? Making a hobby of going out and intentionally winding people up, however technically correct you may be, is hardly a positive contribution to the world, is it?

I don't beleive his hobby is to intentionally wind people up. Infact I don't beleive any of it is a hobby - he uses the combination of legal tickets to enable him to travel for the lowest possible fare. That's neither a hobby nor is it setting out to intentionally wind people up.

 

[DarloRich]

Yorkie - that is all fine but why are the police being called out 4 times in a short period of time? Has anyone considered it might be something more than the presented conspiracy against the OP?

My point is that sometimes removing your self from the potential confrontation is the right thing to do. I have learnt, painfully, the value of doing just that and, as you will know, i am a confrontational person by nature so it doesn't come easily!

Would it not be sensible, to avoid such an unseemly confrontation (which, some may suggest, the OP seems to revel in) and pay for the ticket and make a strong complaint to the appropriate body later. As you are right you will win easily and obtain compensation and a grovelling apology.

I notice no one seems to want to address the issue of refusing to leave private premises after being asked to do so by the owners appointed agent but we will leave that!

 

[yorkie]

Would it not be sensible, to avoid such an unseemly confrontation (which, some may suggest, the OP seems to revel in) and pay for the ticket and make a strong complaint to the appropriate body later. As you are right you will win easily and obtain compensation and a grovelling apology.

1) He used to do that, but it is incredibly time consuming. Perhaps you missed the threads/posts where that was stated?
2) You do not "win easily" at all when it comes to tickets that are valid but the TOC does not want to be valid
3) It is incredibly difficult to get an "apology" out of such situations, I know of a teenager who was going to be chucked off a train ~300 miles from home, by an EC guard, for travelling in accordance with an itinerary and on the trains he held reservations for. It was only the intervention of a BTP officer that prevented that happening. Did EC apologise? No, they just ignored the letter and the teenager couldn't be bothered to chase it up.

 

[RJ]

RJ - may i also , respectfully, suggest you consider your values and behaviours and the impacts of those behaviours on others. I am not saying you aren't in the right but SOMETHING is wrong if the BTP are called out 4 times.

All i am trying to say is that discretion is sometimes the better sort of valour. Sometimes it is better to walk away.

The BTP being called out 4 times doesn't mean anything. I'm pretty sure there have been numerous publicity campaigns pledging for people to stop putting in pointless calls to the emergency services. Staff who have taken the conscious decision to ignore all of the established procedures to deal with ticketing disputes in favour of getting the BTP, where there are no aggravating factors, fall under the category of timewasters as far as I'm concerned. TIRs, PFNs etc mean extra paperwork for staff to complete and it is evident that a number of them would sooner call the BTP to make a problem which they have chosen to create disappear, than do the paperwork and let it go. I don't support this mentality, let alone the decision to delay a train.

You are actually correct - in this situation I should have walked away as those REOs caused over £1000 worth of damage to my personal property, as well as placing a plastic cup full of Coke on the tip up table in front of me immediately before doing what they did, with the inevitable result that the lid came off and the drink went everywhere. That said, as soon as staff see that it's ok to conduct themselves in such a manner with complete impunity, it gives them free licence to do it to other people. Which is not the kind of direction I want things to go in.

 

[DarloRich]

1) He used to do that, but it is incredibly time consuming. Perhaps you missed the threads/posts where that was stated?
2) You do not "win easily" at all when it comes to tickets that are valid but the TOC does not want to be valid
3) It is incredibly difficult to get an "apology" out of such situations, I know of a teenager who was going to be chucked off a train ~300 miles from home, by an EC guard, for travelling in accordance with an itinerary and on the trains he held reservations for. It was only the intervention of a BTP officer that prevented that happening. Did EC apologise? No, they just ignored the letter and the teenager couldn't be bothered to chase it up.

To me it is the wrong approach. It could easily be seen as confrontational or childish. I would just pay up, under protest, obtain the required receipts and documentation and claim it back. It might take a few weeks but so what.

It could be suggested by a less charitable observer than myself that the need to be seen to win , in public, is all consuming. Is a letter from the TOC head office not enough? Or does there have to be public humiliation of the staff member in order to win?

However, it has quickly become apparent that any questioning of the OP or his position is unacceptable, therefore i will limit any further contribution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The BTP being called out 4 times doesn't mean anything. I'm pretty sure there have been numerous publicity campaigns pledging for people to stop putting in pointless calls to the emergency services. Staff who have taken the conscious decision to ignore all of the established procedures to deal with ticketing disputes in favour of getting the BTP, where there are no aggravating factors, fall under the category of timewasters as far as I'm concerned. TIRs, PFNs etc mean extra paperwork for staff to complete and it is evident that a number of them would sooner call the BTP to make a problem which they have chosen to create disappear, than do the paperwork and let it go. I don't support this mentality, let alone the decision to delay a train.

You are actually correct - in this situation I should have walked away as those REOs caused over £1000 worth of damage to my personal property, as well as placing a plastic cup full of Coke on the tip up table in front of me immediately before doing what they did, with the inevitable result that the lid came off and the drink went everywhere. That said, as soon as staff see that it's ok to conduct themselves in such a manner with complete impunity, it gives them free licence to do it to other people. Which is not the kind of direction I want things to go in.

Just walk away from it. Why put yourself through all the hassle, stress and unpleasantness. Take the path of least resistance and live to fight another day.

If you are in the right , and i dont doubt you are, you will win any appeal easily. Yes, you have to write to them and hassle them but it must be better than all of this.

 

[soil]

Yorkie - that is all fine but why are the police being called out 4 times in a short period of time?

Bigotry, in my view.

 

[RJ]

Is this really 'good work', honestly? I'm sorry to make negative comments, but am I the only person who reads these and sees an enormous chip on a certain person's shoulder? Making a hobby of going out and intentionally winding people up, however technically correct you may be, is hardly a positive contribution to the world, is it?

Probably not, but I'm intrigued. Who has a chip on their shoulder and what is it supposed to pertain to?

I travel around the country for business, pleasure and educational reasons with the intention of doing so as cheaply as legitimately possible, not for the purpose of winding people up. I have two jobs, in addition to being self employed with a third line of work and in full time education so I really don't have the time or the will to go around winding people up.

 

[yorkie]

Repeating that something is "easy" does not make it easy. 'Appealing' can be incredibly tiring, time-consuming, and there are no guarantees of getting your money back.

It is incorrect that passengers should be expected to buy a new ticket, and some excellent guards on this forum have clarified the procedures (ie, TIR etc).

If I have a ticket that is valid, how much extra money do you think I should bring with me, to buy an additional valid replacement ticket, in case the guard deems the original ticket invalid?

It's wrong and I am glad some people are standing up against it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bigotry, in my view.

I agree.

In GNER days a teenager travelled between Yorkshire & London on a ticket that was perfectly valid, but the guard felt that the ticket cost more than he could afford, so decided the ticket must be invalid and asked numerous questions. Eventually he gave up, huffing and puffing and extremely angry that he had to allow the young person to travel. If the passenger was a suited businessman then he would not have been challenged, guaranteed.

There are many, many more examples I am aware of, some of which I have witnessed myself.

 

[Mojo]

To me it is the wrong approach. It could easily be seen as confrontational or childish. I would just pay up, under protest, obtain the required receipts and documentation and claim it back. It might take a few weeks but so what.

Longer than a few weeks. On the first week in February I was incorrectly charged for a ticket by Southeastern. I paid them money on my bank card. Two complaints by e-mail and they denied I was charged incorrectly. Several telephone calls and they still denied I was charged incorrectly. A complaint to Passenger Focus and I get a cheque for the money I was charged, and only that, but from the wrong Toc. Southeastern still deny I was charged incorrectly. I have invested over four hours of my time in dealing with this, along with the unnecessary stress, and 10 weeks later I still have not got my money back, as Passenger Focus have advised me not to cash the cheque from the wrong Toc after I advised them of their mistake.

 

[DarloRich]

Bigotry, in my view.

do you actually believe that?

Essentially what you are saying is that there is a conspiracy on the part of one or more railway company/ies and their servants to persecute one individual to such an extent?

Sorry but that doesn't add up to me.

 

[silencio]

Ive only been on the board a short while and don't fully understand what RJ does however he obviously does know what he's doing.

Why should anybody who has valid tickets for services hand over more money than required and remove themselves at the expense of delays. I dont agree that he should pay up and challenge at a later date, if what he's doing is legit then he should stand his ground. Im sick of seeing people get screwed over on a daily basis (generally not relating to trains as I very rarely use them).

RJ seems like a legend in my eyes.

 

[BestWestern]

Probably not, but I'm intrigued. Who has a chip on their shoulder and what is it supposed to pertain to?

I travel around the country for business, pleasure and educational reasons with the intention of doing so as cheaply as legitimately possible, not for the purpose of winding people up. I have two jobs, in addition to being self employed with a third line of work and in full time education so I really don't have the time or the will to go around winding people up.

I accept your assurance then that your endeavours are honest, and I shall retract my 'chip on shoulder' suggestion - I will edit the post in a mo. But, as Darlo has also observed, you can surely appreciate that your apparent regular misfortune could lead people to wonder how a chap encounters such frequent aggression from staff who, if they behaved in such manner all the time, would be out of a job?