Fare evaders - what happens if they run?

[Spaceflower]

Unless;

1. there were no ticket facilities available.
2. You bought the wrong ticket.
3. some other confusion led you to fall foul of the complex fare system.

Or are we to be penalised for being human?


There are always grey areas to rules and regulations, I should know, Ive enforced a few.......and I've always been keen to point out the appeals procedure.

There needs to be transparency and there needs to be fairness. Hence there needs to be a fair appeals system.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

In my opinion, the issue isn't a complicated grey area, but a simple one: You do NOT get on a train without already having bought a ticket for your journey prior to getting on it.

That's all very well, but my local station has neither a ticket office nor a ticket machine.

In practice if I'm buying leisure tickets well in advance, I will have them delivered, but what if I'm travelling at relatively short notice? I could collect them at the next station, but I have two problems with this, the first being that presumably I'm travelling without a ticket en route to the next station, the second being that in the event of the ticket machine being problematic, the train could have departed. It's only an hourly service.

Generally speaking when not having a pre purchased ticket, I have been able to buy the ticket on the train, but on two occasions this hasn't been possible. One was because of the sheer numbers of passengers, the other where the conductor/guard made no attempt to cover the whole train or the whole journey.

 

[jon0844]

If there's no way to collect your ticket before boarding but you have already paid, it's not the same as not buying a ticket at all.

That said, even though you can use any machine, aren't you supposed to nominate a station to collect them? Is that part of a contract?

 

[jb]

If there's no way to collect your ticket before boarding but you have already paid, it's not the same as not buying a ticket at all.

Is that correct? (Technically, leaving aside any "rights and wrongs" of it). In this situation one presumably has a proof of purchase but not the ticket itself. I'm led to believe that these are two fundamentally different things - specifically that the former isn't worth much.

 

[Tibbs]

Is that correct? (Technically, leaving aside any "rights and wrongs" of it). In this situation one presumably has a proof of purchase but not the ticket itself. I'm led to believe that these are two fundamentally different things - specifically that the former isn't worth much.

It should, but it doesn't. It's a good example of laws not keeping up with the times.

When the law was written paying for a ticket and receiving the ticket happened at the same time. Now they're not but the law hasn't been updated to reflect this.

 

[sarahj]

and then you have the Southern rainy day thing, where if the ticket is not collected a refund can be claimed.

But this thread is heading off topic.

I've seen em run, I've seen em jump, I've seen them fall flat on their face when they try to jump . And a lot who jump know that you cannot touch em, the usual, know their rights, not their......

but i've also seen enough grabbed by BTP, RNO's etc etc

 

[jon0844]

Is that correct? (Technically, leaving aside any "rights and wrongs" of it). In this situation one presumably has a proof of purchase but not the ticket itself. I'm led to believe that these are two fundamentally different things - specifically that the former isn't worth much.

You'd still be liable to byelaw 18 merely for not showing a valid ticket, but I went on to say that while you've paid (so there's no intent to avoid paying) you had to elect a site to pick up a ticket. If that isn't the station you started from, have you broken a contract?

You'd be expected to find a way to that station to collect it, without going without a ticket. Thus there would be no excuse.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

You'd be expected to find a way to that station to collect it, without going without a ticket. Thus there would be no excuse.

The other station (Bourne End) is three miles away and the only public transport route is by the train. So, as I suspected, the legal options are
(a) make a special trip to collect the tickets
(b) have the ticket start at the other station, collect it from there and buy a single or return on the train for the local gap. This risks being unable to rejoin the train if there's a delay at the machine.
(c) have the ticket start at the home station and buy an extra single to duplicate the first part of the ticket.

Is there some rule or convention that says you cannot have a machine when there isn't a booking office? Otherwise I don't see why Marlow doesn't have a machine.

 

[maniacmartin]

Is there some rule or convention that says you cannot have a machine when there isn't a booking office? Otherwise I don't see why Marlow doesn't have a machine.

I suspect its because if the machine had a fault, there would be no booking office staff to rectify it or issue the tickets manually, so people could be unable to collect their pre-paid tickets for immediate travel.

 

[185]

1. there were no ticket facilities available.

....at the place where you boarded?

Lol... that's no excuse at Northern. They'll still prosecute you if you fail to find the often well hidden booking office on arrival at your destination.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I suspect its because if the machine had a fault, there would be no booking office staff to rectify it or issue the tickets manually, so people could be unable to collect their pre-paid tickets for immediate travel.

A couple of thoughts on this. Many stations with machines have booking offices with limited hours of opening, so the machine broken problem could potentially apply to them as well. Admittedly you would have to get someone to visit and check the machine every so often if there was no booking office.

Although the websites ask for a station to be nominated, is it not the case that any machine can handle requests for pre-paid tickets, not just those at the specified station?

 

[455driver]

Most ticket machines report to a control room if there is a fault.

That control room can then inform the guards on the route in question about the fault and arrange someone to go out and hit it with a hammer, oops I mean fix it.

 

[maniacmartin]

Although the websites ask for a station to be nominated, is it not the case that any machine can handle requests for pre-paid tickets, not just those at the specified station?

You can collect from any ToD-enabled machine - ie any station in the dropdown list you see when ordering, even if you selected a different one. However, for the benefit of others reading the thread, not all machines are ToD-enabled, so you can't go to a station which is not in the list.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

arrange someone to go out and hit it with a hammer, oops I mean fix it.

This could be quite expensive for a rural station, unlike staffed stations where there will be staff on-site who can re-stock it and do basic maintenance when the booking office is next open.

Also, I guess that stations that are manned at least limited hours will suffer less vandalism than a TVM just sitting on it's own.

 

[455driver]

This could be quite expensive for a rural station, unlike staffed stations where there will be staff on-site who can re-stock it and do basic maintenance when the booking office is next open.

It is cheaper to have one man in a van than having all the stations manned.

Also, I guess that stations that are manned at least limited hours will suffer less vandalism than a TVM just sitting on it's own.

Which is why a lot of these machines are card only.

 

[maniacmartin]

Which is why a lot of these machines are card only.

Unfortunately they can still be damaged even if card only. A machine was installed at my parents' local station which is quite secluded and set away from the road. Within a week it had been destroyed as someone thought it was a good idea to smash the screen just for the fun of it. The TOC removed the machine and obviously didn't replace it, not even with a card-only one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is cheaper to have one man in a van than having all the stations manned.

And potentially even cheaper to have no ticket-purchasing opportunties and let passengers buy from the guard.

 

[Urban Gateline]

And potentially even cheaper to have no ticket-purchasing opportunties and let passengers buy from the guard.

Potentially even cheaper to have DOO trains and the passengers buys at destination going by your logic

The TOC I work for seems very good at keeping TVM's working, the one at Sunnymeads has been attacked countless times, mainly the screen being smashed in but it keeps getting repaired. The local gypsies can't beat SWT on that one I'm afraid

 

[jon0844]

Although the websites ask for a station to be nominated, is it not the case that any machine can handle requests for pre-paid tickets, not just those at the specified station?

Correct. I expect the reason you nominate one is merely so you can only select stations that have the facilities. And that's where the problem arises if the station nearest you doesn't have one.

If you don't elect to have the tickets posted (or it is too late to get them posted) it is my understanding that you must organise your own way to where you can collect them, even if that means buying another ticket, getting a bus/taxi or walking etc.

If you just think to go without a ticket and argue you have one to collect further on your route, I expect you'd be on very shaky ground. Especially if you could in theory never collect the ticket and get a refund later. Or indeed someone else picks up the ticket you bought and uses it.

Of course, it would make sense to have machines to issue preordered tickets at every station and then encourage people to buy from home or even on their smartphone. That would mean stations in risky areas for handling cash could still offer some form of ticketing facilities for the convenience of passengers. That and perhaps allowing a nearby shop or post office to sell tickets.

 

[maniacmartin]

That and perhaps allowing a nearby shop or post office to sell tickets.

I think this option needs some serious consideration by TOCs. They have a somewhat similar setup at Merseyrail if I remember correctly?

 

[jon0844]

In the future, I see it that we'll have smartcards and that will mean people can (and will be expected) to have a ticket before travel, or pay as they go. Even if that means paying a 'deposit' (aka a permit to travel) on their card until such time that they can convert that into the ticket they want. As long as we have a national card system (even if individually branded but still interoperable), most of the population will get a card and keep it in their wallet along with all the other bits of plastic we carry.

Local shops might also offer ticketing facilities, including selling a ticket on paper and eventually put on a smartcard (doing away with the need for shops to be kept stocked with tickets and maintain the printers).

Stations can have a machine that has a simple screen and keyboard (on screen or a physical keyboard, as used in many outdoor booths - i.e. made of metal) that allows you to print pre-purchased tickets, or indeed transfer that ticket to a smartcard. I see smartcards as being able to hold tickets, a cash value (for PAYG) and other things like permits to show where you entered and when you first travelled (including validators on trains, which might one day mean different rates for using different services), if you are unable to purchase a ticket at the originating station for whatever reason.

Users could then, as most will want to do I'd imagine, buy a ticket online via an app on their phone. The purchase would of course be time stamped (to stop people buying a ticket only when they see an RPI) and you could then touch your smartcard against your NFC-enabled phone (in a few years, I'd expect most if not all phones will have NFC support) to transfer it to your card.

At this point, there will be virtually no excuse for not having some form of ticket or card that permits travel. As a result, the penalties can increase accordingly.

 

[transmanche]

Users could then, as most will want to do I'd imagine, buy a ticket online via an app on their phone. The purchase would of course be time stamped (to stop people buying a ticket only when they see an RPI)

Although solving many existing ticketing problems, I can forsee a whole new set of problems/arguments being created - as has happened on Swiss Railways.

 

[jon0844]

I expect that the issues raised in the article can be resolved. For one, if I can't use a ticket machine I'd be very tempted these days to take a photograph (or video even) to prove something wasn't working.

I'd also expect modern machines to report when they're out of service, and so on.

But, yes, there will never be a 100% foolproof system - but I do still believe that we'll move towards all (or most) of the things I've suggested above and will have to cope with and overcome the new problems that will come with it.

 

[Tibbs]

Although solving many existing ticketing problems, I can forsee a whole new set of problems/arguments being created - as has happened on Swiss Railways.

Unfortunately most UK TOCs don't have any good public relations to lose.

And the same need for profit.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

At this point, there will be virtually no excuse for not having some form of ticket or card that permits travel.

Is there any particular reason why trains shouldn't be equipped with self service ticket machines? With smart cards, have a reader on the train itself, as with buses.

 

[bb21]

Who is going to fund it, for a start? It is something that provides very little additional benefit. Will it be installed on all trains?

 

[MikeWh]

Is there any particular reason why trains shouldn't be equipped with self service ticket machines? With smart cards, have a reader on the train itself, as with buses.

How many doors does a bus have?
How many doors does a full length Pendolino have?

 

[jon0844]

Is there any particular reason why trains shouldn't be equipped with self service ticket machines? With smart cards, have a reader on the train itself, as with buses.

I can see that being possible on a card-only basis (no cash, that would be a disaster waiting to happen!), with people either tapping with their smartcard - or even perhaps their contact less payment card.

The same equipment could also validate smartcards for optimum charging, such as taking a slower service over a faster one to get a discount, or being charged less when travelling against the flow in peak times...

Something for the next generation of trains and when we get a whole new way of ticketing and pricing the use of the railway. Won't happen overnight, but I am confident it WILL happen. Certainly, whatever changes are made, we won't be keeping paper tickets forever.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

How many doors does a bus have?
How many doors does a full length Pendolino have?

A single decker bus has about 40 seats, a railway carriage around 80. A bus has one door in use for boarding , an Inter-City railway carriage two. How many readers or ticket machines you really need would depend on the number of passengers joining without tickets. Having a conductor going round taking money or cards and issuing tickets seems terribly inefficient when you could get passengers to do it for themselves, particularly if they were required to have already booked and paid for the tickets

 

[island]

You need at the very least 11 readers in a Pendolino (one for every other door). Otherwise the scrotes just say "I wanted to touch in but there was no reader".

 

[Spaceflower]

Sorry for 'touching in' halfway through a conversation, but are we talking about Amsterdam style ticketing?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

You need at the very least 11 readers in a Pendolino (one for every other door).

I was thinking rather more about the two car 165 on the local Branch. If you had smart ticketing you would want a reader in each vestibule,so four in total. If it had an onboard ticket machine, one should be enough. It supplements rather than replaces gated stations when the trains travel to stations without ticket offices or ATMs.